Arun Maira

Intro:// Welcome, welcome welcome ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the podcast The xMonks Drive. I am your host Gaurav Arora. and our today’s guest is someone very special. It’s an absolute honor and a pleasure to introduce to you Mr. Arun Maira. Mr. Maira is one of those few individuals in the country who has served both private as well as public sectors, bringing a unique blend and perspective on how the two of them can work together to foster growth for our nation, India. He has led three rounds of participative and comprehensive scenario building for the future of the country in the year 1999. With CI in the year 2005, with the World Economic Forum, and the year 2011, the Planning Commission of India, his illustrious rounds of career spanning five decades, he has led several organizations including the Boston Consulting Group in India. In the first 25 years of his career, he has served Tata Group in several leadership positions. He has served the boards of different Indian organizations including Tata Birla’s, Mahindra’s, Godrej, the hero group, ladies and gentlemen, the year 2009. He was appointed as the member of the Planning Commission of India, which is led by the Prime Minister of the country. He's the author of several books. In fact, in the last, a couple of weeks, I've been reading the work that he has done, including few of the books is: A collection of poems listening to my mind, Transforming systems, why the world needs a new Ethical Tool kit. And one of my favorites, listening for well-being conversations with people, not like us. 02:20 Apart from the accomplishments that Mr. Maira has, the work that he has done, both in private as well as public sectors, I think what stuck with me was the person that he is. 02:37 I remember my first conversation with Mr. Maira. And he said, “Gaurav, thank you for calling. Such a pleasure speaking to you.” And I was wondering, I think there's some confusion that he has, he's talking to some other Gaurav. Why would he say that, it's a pleasure talking to this Gaurav. And I know that you've called me to understand and talk about conscience, and that the work that you do. And above that, he said, “Gaurav, but I would love to understand, how are you doing? How are you? How are things going on? How's life?” And then I started speaking. You know, I've come across so many authors who talk about listening, but when it comes to an opportunity to speak, they choose to speak. And when I spoke to Mr. Maira, what stayed with me was the way he listened, the way he held the space for me. And that gave me a glimpse of the human side of Mr. Maira. Mr. Maira, thank you so much. It's an absolute honour, a privilege, a pleasure to have you . In our Indian tradition, when we meet somebody that you have got huge respect for, you touch their feet. So please consider this that I'm touching your feet and seeking your blessings. Thank you. 03:59 Thank you, thank you, Gaurav, thank you. 04:04 Now, apart from all the accomplishments that you have, and I would love to dwell deeper into that. The leadership lessons that you have experienced, the challenges that you've faced in different tenures that you have spent both in India and the US. The kind of work that you have done globally. But I would love to understand, would love to hear an episode from your life that brings a smile on your face today as well as anything that you may want to share. 04:43 Thank you Gaurav, thank you thank you very much. You are a masterful, let's say not a coach, but a person who can enable others to discover something about themselves and the conversation that you report that you and I had. Yes I am, I am continue to be very interested in you. I want to keep watching you evolve and to learn with you. But in that conversation also, though I was wanting very much to learn about you, you asked me the same question. And I gave you a different answer, a story that brings a smile to my life. But today, because of something you said, I'm going to say something different. And that is something, a surprise for you. You said that you’d like to touch my feet and Indian tradition. And that reminded me that, you know, one must remember how humble one is or should be, and how small one is, and others giving one adulation and others putting one on a pedesta,l can change one. And so leaders do want others to respect them and elevate them, because then they would have power over. Over the others. An unquestioned wisdom that they could be using to determine what's good for the others. So this is a very dangerous situation to accept. Without questioning in oneself, I accept it, because I know you're doing it honestly and gracefully. And so I don't want to push you away and say no, Gaurav don't do that because you're harming me. I've accepted but I noticed is going on inside myself. And so coming to an incident that story. I was at a very young age, made the general manager and then the resident director of the Tata’s big operations in Pune. And we were very soon, while I was there, the largest enterprise in Pune. The next largest was the army or the largest was the army with the Southern Command. And we were the largest, second largest enterprise. So, amongst the corporate world, we were larger than, by then by the Kirloskers, the Bajajs. Not at the very great business houses there and some foreign companies. And so there was this young man, who was, I was given a Mercedes car to drive in around the town, and very few people, even in the other companies had those. And so I could think a lot about myself, you know, when anything I wanted, like in the company, I would have to just look up and my secretary would come and say, “Sir, so what do you want now?” You know, I walk out on the shop floor, and then you know, people would notice me and so. So on the weekend, which was weekend was a Thursday, because of the power staggering in Maharashtra, I would go out to do things by myself. Drive my own car, stopping wherever I had to go and get out to buying a railway ticket, for example, I have to buy the tickets for personal use, the family’s use, and I said, I'll go buy the tickets myself. And I will do this, because I stand in the queue there. And no one knew there that I am this resident director of the biggest company in Pune. And so there were no one making way for me, or giving me any special treatment. And I began to do this as an exercise to myself. Put myself into situations where I was not getting my title and my position, and people around me adulated me to sort of make space and help me around. So this is not necessarily to bring a smile to my face, perhaps it is to yours as I can see. And so the other incidents which are more about me, and my relationships with the people, but I don’t want to keep talking Gaurav so. Please go ahead, please go ahead. Yeah. So the other incident which brings a smile to my face is very sweet one. I was in Pune, like I said, and in Pune, the industries had to work through the Saturday and Sunday because they were not given power on some other day in the week. So that there'll be staggering of power use all over Maharashtra. So our holiday in the Pune area was for industries on Thursdays, like I said, I used to go out and do whatever work I had to do for the family by myself. And my children would be off on Saturday and Sunday from school and I was at work and long hours. So I hardly spent any time with my children as they were growing up. From the time they were three-four years old till they were now you know, six, seven years later getting over nine and 10. 09:44 I was sent off to Pune where Tata’s had a new operation. Tthe first Indian manufacturing joint venture ever outside India and Tata’s were giving their technology to a Malaysian company to again build trucks and buses like we were doing in India, to sell them there in competition with the other foreign companies, which were already there Mercedes and the Toyota and Nissan and Volvo from Sweden. And the whole caboose was there from the UK. And we had to compete, and it was very hard. And the whole joint venture was going down the tubes. So my boss just picked me up and said, “You know, you still got the energy, young and the ambition to make something which will make India proud of itself. Now, go do it there. Go off that sort of staff”. But the bonus was that there, we closed on Sundays, and I had a half a day Saturday off. And so my holidays were the same time as my children’s. And the first weekend they were there, first weekend, I decided that we go as a family for a picnic. And so we went off in some lovely forests and streams and outside Kuala Lumpur. And when we came back at night, everybody was happy and tired. And as I was going to sleep my hand slipped under my pillow, and I felt a piece of paper there. So I was surprised. So I got up and put up the bedside lamp and looked at this piece of paper. And it was a letter from my daughter, who was then, I forget that the starting time, about seven years old, in which and a little handwriting she written, “O Daddy, what a true friend, you've proved to be. Thank you, Your darling daughter, Sunaina.” What a true friend I have proved to be that day, all had done was to do something that really made me so happy, which was, have the time of my family, give my time to my family, which I was not able to do before, not because of intentions, but just circumstances. And that brings such a smile to my face to see some simple things like this. It’s just giving your time to others. That means so much to them. And you have a very joyous life, a very joyous life if you have good happy relationships with people who feel that you care for them. And they care for you. 12:14 Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing Mr. Maira. Oh, Daddy, what a true friend you proved to be. I have a little one who is two and a half. And every time when she would see me working on a laptop, she would come and in her own language, she would ask me to close the laptop and play with me. She would just pull up pull out the colors from her color box and it would start to do makeup on my face. The other day yesterday, I was talking to a client and she came all the way. She grabbed nail polish from somewhere. And she started painting my nails and I was like, “Okay, let me just have a conversation.” She said no, no, just close the laptop. So I know what you're saying, Oh, Daddy, what a true friend, you prove to be. Mr. Maira, during our last conversation. You mentioned that when you were 16. That was the first time you read Bhagavad Gita. And you read this shlok, Karmanye vadhikaraste ma phaleshu kadhachana, Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani. And from that point onwards, you got stuck with this shlok. And since then you often reflect on the shlok, tell me about that. What's so unique about this? 13:29 In simple english it says you only have a right to the work and not to the fruits they’re of. Yes, you have a right to the work. The work, What work? It is the work that you're called upon to do and that you are given talents to do in the world. That is the work you must do in the world, to be in the world. And to be, as I say, doing your best in the world, in ways that the negative things don't harm the world. But the other side comes doing good for the world. You don't know what that is, because that would depend on what others feel is good for the world. So the choice of what you do only one simple rule, which as Gandhi’s and others say in Buddhism, whatever you do it should be non-violent, it should cause no harm. But what is the good that you would do? So you have to determine and make choices and make judgments about if I did this, it would be good for the world and it's something I want to do better and learn and this by equip myself and educate myself and develop my skills to do that and do it for good of the world. But then the fruits they are of, what would be the fruits of my doing this good work? So well. The very obvious one in our world is that you do it so that you can earn enough money and the world values. What you provide, in so much in money terms that this is the money that you earn. So we work for earning money, and there is nothing wrong, you have to earn some money. Because to pay for the other things that you need, you do not producing by your own work, you're not growing your own food, for example, and weaving your own clothes, you have to pay someone for that. So you must earn enough money for your needs. So I work for money. So the fruit of my work is money. But they say, just watch it, just watch it. That's not the purpose of the work. The purpose of the work is something else. And this is something that must come sufficiently for you. To satisfy you is not the purpose of the work. The second is, I must work to, if I'm a leader, to get known, to get respected, to be followed. The point you were making, by saying that, you know, I sort of respect you and wish to touch your feet. So yes, you should be visible and respected by others, so that you could do your job as a leader. It would be easier for you to be reached by people and to reach out to people and do your job as a leader. But that becomes inside yourself, that I am doing this to get fame, and to get fear and respect. Yes. Enough, this is a difficult one, I can justify it by saying that I need that respect that people give me and fear that give me so I can do my job as a leader. Well, as part of my work to earn this, this is part of what I'm supposed to produce, and to be able to do the real work for the world. But this can corrupt you, this can corrupt you. You begin to think so much of yourself, that it's me who produced this result. They're saying so there must be something great about me. And you stop at that point, two L’s you stop doing. One is you stop listening to others. Yes, if they want to say something, because something concerns them, it hurts them. You shut it out, because there's so many others say, I'm alright, must be something wrong with you that you think badly of me or you say that I'm not doing right. So this is, as we are noticing in politics in our country, and everywhere, it comes to this. You want to push away those who say things about you, which are critical about you're saying they don't know, they got an agenda here. All right. So keep watching for this, this one, and the other end is learning. You stop learning. You think you know it. Everyone's telling you, you know it. You got the answers, sir, now, just please tell us. You stop learning. And the world is changing. And even you are having a lot more room to learn throughout your life. And if at any point in your life, you come to this point of arrival that “No one feels that they know more than me.I'm like, God. I know everything.” So just don't ever think that you got reached God. 18:12 You never will. And I think life is all about, living is about learning. Once you stop learning, you stop living. And I say to keep learning, please keep listening to things that appear against you that appear wrong to you. Because that is what you got to question. Why do they appear wrong? Why do they appear against me? Just why. Just learn about why others feel and think what to do and why the world is not accepting your solutions. And if you start listening to the birds and the trees or the absence of trees. You say, all this big economic plans and projects I've done, have they harmed anybody? Yes, they've harmed something which I may think is useless. The forest and the trees and who cares about birds singing to make noise and shut them out. But they are a small part of this large living system. Yeah. Is the true essence of life, which is your discussion today. 19:19 Yeah, you know, reminds me while I was going through your book, on Transforming Systems—Why The World Needs A New Ethical Toolkit. You mentioned in the initial few pages, something from Robert Frost. Robert Frost suggests that the capacity to question the purpose of one's own existence, for which there is no easy answer, is the big joke that the God has played on humans. Human beings sense that they are a part of the largest tool. They wonder what story is.Human beings have aspirations that as far as they know, no other species has to change the big story of what they are a small part of. You know, and in all our conversations, you have not only spoken about, but you have also demonstrated what it means to be really kind. You know, in fact, I remember I was watching another conversation of yours. And the lady who was interviewing you made a same silly mistake that I did. And what you did here, you did exactly there as well. Because what you did was, you corrected the title of the book and at the same time, you also wrapped it up. You rounded it off so well, that the interviewer should not feel bad about herself. So Mr. Maira just curious, right, I would definitely love to come back to the philosophy that you have shared that just focus on your karma and on the results anyways, you don't have a right. In the morning, I was having a conversation with a dear friend, we were talking about the concept of choiceless choices. So I would love to understand how to, how have you been able to live that philosophy of just doing karma in the big roles that you have held in the past? Right? The chairman of Boston Consulting groups, then you are responsible to the stakeholders, you are a member of the Planning Commission of India, but coming back to being kind. How did you pick up these traits of being kind to create that ease for our people? And why is it really important for human beings to be kind to each other? 21:36 Must be some early days, what one observes of people around oneself. And what one observes what mother's doing, one's father doing, one’s other relatives of the people who live in, help us in our homes do. One picks up what is good behavior. And they are people who want depend on like, one's parents, one respects them because one needs something from them. And then whatever they do, are also one begins to you know, respect that too. respect that too. So the role models that one has around oneself when one is forming one's deeper beliefs and, and values are very important. And for me, my mother and my father were great role models of kindness. For them, the poor people, homeless people, they serve. The way they related to them. Particularly my mother was, you know, complete respect. The person was poorer, she would say still come and sit on the chair next to her. Except the people would feel like you know, sometimes say you feel awkward. And so if they wish to sit on the floor, when they came to say, though, she'd offer that, you know, you're more comfort, if you're more comfortable, please come and sit here. They say no Mataji, we'd rather sit there. So I noticed this part that she was wanting others to feel comfortable and to feel that whatever she has they can have, if it's their choice. If it is their choice, and then listening to others to give them the dignity of being listened to. I learned from my grandson again. I mean, my mother taught me, but it was when I was in the Planning Commission, when I joined the Planning Commission. And my grandson was seven, at the time was came to India. And he lives in the US and was in school in the US. And he came to India and I drove him around the New Delhi, Lutyens’ Delhi, Lodhi Road area and Rashtrapati Bhavan area and he saw beggars on the streets. And lots of beggars on the streets. And he wondered why this rich country, you know, big roads and stuff and he came from America where they're no beggars. How come the strange things there are beggars in this place? And why is it that they have no food that's begging and sleeping on the roadside and look so poorly dressed. So it was explained to him that India is a poor country. Now, this was two years before I joined the Planning Commission. He came back, that was when he was five. He came back when he was seven, I just joined the Planning Commission. And he was a little bigger. And I was driving in the same places with him. And he suddenly exploded. He said, “What is the government doing about this? Even more poor people in the country.” So I'm the government now you see, so I had to explain to him that we were making plans and I showed him the big previous Planning Commission's plans. And then the numbers and charts we work very hard, I said to him, and little boy’s couldn't get that. So I decided to take him to the Planning Commission and to show him at least something physical. So he saw big rooms and big officers and lots of staff outside waiting on me. And you know, bringing me things as I wanted, coco-cola for him and, and so on. So he went back to school and he was asked to write like, all the children were, a page or two or what they've done in the summer, what they've learned in the summer. As it was US’s summer holidays for them when he was here, and he wrote a book on the Planning Commission of India. And in the Planning Commission of India, he talked about the purpose for which he thought it was set up. And he came to say that the Planning Community he called it. He didn't even call it the commission. By the end of it, the planning community is a place where all the poor people of India can come, and there will be someone there who will listen to them, and then they will not be poor anymore. 25:28 And I thought about it, just by listening to someone, how is it that they will not be poor anymore. The first part of the dignity that you give them. The feeling of respect that they have will long last, that someone is taking me seriously. And so he don't feel indignity as a person. I'm respected equally, and I may be talking from this person's perspective things this person doesn't understand. But that's the point. And this has to get across somewhere. The second part of how if the Planning Commission people they were able to listen to the people of India, they won't be poor people anymore, is understanding the whole system. That's why the book you said Transforming Systems, and an ethical toolkit. And then in the toolkit of the, ethical toolkit, as you know, I put listening as one of the core disciplines. You may say, you know, as you know technical toolkit, we think of toolkits as techniques. And I think listening is is a discipline that can be developed into a, into a technique, it is a simple rules, actually. And you, I know you know them and you practice them. And I think many more people, just to be good human beings themselves and to be effective in making the whole world such that fewer and fewer people are poor in both ways that they feel included and respected. And also in material terms, because you get the right policies, and you won't be poor anymore like my grandson says. 27:01 You know, I'm able to relate to that starting from the story that you shared from your mother, the way she would listen, the way she would, with dignity, she would offer any kind of help to other people, I could relate to that from my life. If there's one lesson that I've learned from my mother, I would say that Shukrana. She lived with Shukrana. And when the time came for her to move on, she left this body with dignity. That's what I often share. And I could relate to every single word that you mentioned, that every time when consciously or unconsciously, when I don't listen to my father. And I see that sadness on his face, I know that his dignity is getting compromised. And I never thought from that perspective, so shukran for bringing that beautiful connection between listening and offering that dignity. And every time when I listen to my father, I can see that how his back straightens up. Right. And then when he speaks about his two sons, with his friends, he speaks with a lot of dignity. So thank you so much, Mr. Maira for bringing that. Mr. Maira you also spoke about well Planning Commission of India where you have served, you have held senior leadership positions with Boston Consulting Group and Tatas, at the same time, your interaction where you spoke about the poors on the streets of India. Just curious, in your book, Transforming Systems that we are talking about. There are two questions that you have asked, the first question is Who Am I? The second question is What's My Role In The World, Which I'm A Part Of? I see these are two poignant questions. So on one hand, we are speaking about the power we are speaking about the privileges that come to you, on the other hand, we are talking about these questions that could make anyone pause and reflect. Just curious where the lightness of going deeper within and the hustle of the corporate world, the power of serving the country, where do these two polarities meet. And how did you manage to walk on this tightrope? 29:21 Gaurav Thank you. You know, be good. Be pure yourself. Don't contaminate yourself with bad thoughts and bad actions. And so as spiritual traditions ask us to, you know, keep purifying ourselves. And the easier way of purifying yourself is to detach yourself from the world, don't care about the world. In fact, physically detach yourself and get into an ashram or something and you can be a very pure being. But what use has that been to the world? It's been good for you. Good for you. And you can get to heaven stage and a pure soul. But what good have you done to the world where there's so much suffering around? And don't you have a role like Gandhiji, to get out and do something about the suffering of others? And while you're doing something about the suffering of others, these points that we discussed earlier come. That others must want to follow you. Otherwise, we can't have a movement for change. And when they start following you, they start putting you on a pedestal. So what does it do to me? I do need this power, this power, over others so that they will come along. But this power over others can, you know, put me on my pedestal in my own mind also. And I have to keep myself very humble on the ground like Gandhiji and keep working, keep working. So he did call, say his autobiography, his journey of his experiments with truth. And he kept his journals. And in his journal, he talked about his thoughts. His thoughts about, you know, what he felt about what he had done that day. And, you know, must try something different. It was experiments. He was experimenting with the world he had to. And this is what we need more of. Leaders who are not just adopting the present solutions and technology as a solution to everything. And be better at it and apply it more. But be aware of the harms that it causes, as well as that everyone doesn't have access to the same technology levels that you have, so that, you know, they're not included in the progress also. So these are the ethical questions in that you must keep. That's why the idea of non-violence Gandhiji’s idea of non-violence is very necessary. He said whatever solutions you find, you should be not harming anything. Even preferably, not yourself, don't harm yourself. But you have to hurt yourself by asking yourself these tough questions. And never put yourself in a position that you think they know more tough questions to ask yourself. I put in shutting out others who could then say, “Hey, you got so full of yourself? Let me ask you, do you feel full of yourself?” Yes. That's why I said, I respect you for the conversation you had with me. You remind me to say look, let me not get so carried away with the appreciation of Gaurav who I respect. 32:33 Thank you, you know, while you were mentioning Gandhiji, one of the quotes that came to me while I was listening to you was when he said that “I've always kept a check on how's my external success interrelated to my inner peace and inner harmony.” And that's exactly what you're mentioning right now. So thank you so much. Mr. Maira. Mr. Maira, just a last question. You know, after every important position that you have held, you came up with your learning. If Gandhiji kept a journal, I'm sure even you kept a journal for yourself where you put it together and gifted a book to the world. Now, where you are in your life right now, what's the next chapter of your life? Given a choice to write another book what would you love to write on? 33:20 Interesting! Yes. After my conversation with you, some other old friend who had induced me to put together a book called Remaking India, One Country, One Destiny, which was put together in 2004, I think. And it was because I'd been writing in Economic Times every month, and other places. And he had said to me, he was a senior man in Tata, that, “You know, I read everything you write, and it's, you know, it's a beautiful thought, I can't keep going back why don’t you put them all out into a book. Put them together and choose some and put them into a book.” So I said, “Who wants to re-read my stuff?” He said, “No, as you read your own stuff, again, you might find a thread through it. So that is what you're going to contribute towards shaping this book.” You know you choose according to the thread you chapterise according to the thread. It's like, beads on a necklace, the string enables the beads which are different, to form something beautiful. So you got to now figure out what is the thread through all this? And it's a coincidence. You spoke to me and the same gentleman for some other purpose called me after some years. And he said the same question. Are you writing a book? So I said, “No, I've done enough of that. So what would I write about?” And he said this to me, which is I'm feeding back to you. He said, “Arun in the last few years, you've written 9 or 10 books, since that book. And also you've been writing longer essays. You know, 6000 words. 5000 words. And they're not 1000 word articles in journals, neither are they 60,000-word books. And in those length, 5-6000 words, you can get into the depth of something with enough information around it.” Now he says, “I know very few people read these things. But now you make a selection of your deeper stuff. That'll be more recent ones, and find what it is.” And he said, this lovely thing that write it like the autobiography of an idea. This is a core idea. So it's as if your idea is writing its own story. Well, here are the stages in the life of this idea. So I thought it was a beautiful thing. So I'm just wondering, maybe I should do that now. 35:42 Thank you. Thank you. And Mr. Maira, just last question here. You know, today, if you look back and look at your journey, if you will, just and Steve Jobs words, if you just connect all the dots. And if you were to speak to a five-year-old, what would you tell him or her? What's the essence of life? 36:01 Oh, I have to do this all the time. I get young children, plus my own grandchildren and others. And I just ask them what they're curious about.I ask them what they care about. And they're able to then express, you know, some subject that they're curious about, then we explore that together. I wonder myself sometimes what it is about. Sometimes I know what it's all about, but it's the child's curiosity that enables me to then give information or thoughts which the child wants to know. We learn by having a question and it’s the question that matters to me at that time. Okay, so this is the technical part of learning. And the other part, the ethical part is the caring/ You know, what do you care about? And I say here, with my grandchildren, we're doing it even now, that the natural you're always born as with compassion, I mean, children are, you know, they see any other human being could be rich or poor. They just reach out you know. You put two little babies together, one is poor sitting on the floor, and the rich one, I mean, they'll play with each other. After some time you Chi Chi Chi Chi, you know, you know that and tell them you know, but you know, these chaps, they don't live well, nothing wrong with them, but they don't live well and is dirty, and you might get infected. And you start you know classifying them as something bad for you in being in contact with them. So again, about these children about you know, who they care about or what they care about. I asked them, you know, why do you care about this, but that at five, it's harder for them to answer. By six or seven, but as you notice, my grandson, I noticed that by six or seven, he had it, he cared for something. It was nice. Whether his mother and father gave it to him, by the way, they are like my mother gave it to me, it comes in us. And that's where the role model’s part is important that you just leave the space and they discover their own sense of responsibility for the world. 37:52 Thank you. I just loved it when you said that, what do you care about? And that's a good question for all of us to explore. What do we care about? And it reminded me of my conversation with Sir John Whitmore. And it's not a coincidence, because I asked you what's the true essence of life? And I asked the same question, “Mr. John, I would love to learn coaching. What's your suggestion?” And he said, “Learn to observe a small child and the curiosity with which she asked questions.” Thank you so much. Mr. Maira, such a pleasure having you here. Thank You Gaurav. Looking forward to our conversations again.Thank you. Thank 38:33 you. Outro:// Hope you enjoyed this conversation. Do share your rating and review and I look forward to meeting you next week with yet another interesting conversation. Till then, take care and stay tuned ☺