INTRO:// - What are communities? And how do you build them… - What kind of challenges can you expect at different stages of building communities? - And how to tackle those hurdles… Welcome ladies and gentleman, welcome to the podcast the xMonks Drive. I am your host Gaurav Arora and our today’s guest is Luca suh-leene Buch-holz who is the Global Community Lead at Camunda. So, Let’s hear from someone who has built communities from ground zero and understand how she has been able to distill that sense of shared Identity and the Common Purpose in those communities. Outro// - My key take aways from this episode are: - First: “People can definitely copy your product or service. They cannot copy the sense of community.” - Second is: “What’s meant for you won't miss you” What are your take aways or reflections. Do share them with us by leaving a review and rating this episode and I look forward to meeting you again next week with yet another interesting conversation. Till them take care and stay tuned. 00:02 So look at finally we are here. Thank you so much for accepting my invitation. And beyond the podcast x months, right? 00:11 Hi. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. Pleasure. 00:18 You know, that's what we were discussing. Initially, it was like extremely difficult one to get on to you to get on your calendar. And the second one was the technical glitches that we were dealing with. That's true. But now we're here, right? We finally made it. Absolutely. Absolutely. 00:36 So look, without wasting any more time, let me just dive into the topic for which you're known for. Yeah, you are a community builder. And I'm so excited to talk about this. Because I can relate with this concept, I could relate with this identity, I relate with the entire concept of bringing people together, rallying people together for a common cause. In fact, the world is talking about communities and community led growth and organizations, just curious from a veteran like you, what is a community? And how, and what does it mean when I say community led growth? 01:17 Cool. Yeah. So maybe a little bit of background information about myself. So I'm the local community, we lead at camunda. So that's a software company. So our community is there are a lot of developers that we are focusing on. And I think the question what a community is, it's really interesting, because probably, if you ask like a lot of different people, you will get a lot of different answers, because it's such a term, 01:46 such a broad term. And that's why I think it's an really interesting question. But I think for me, their main ly three different things that I feel are super important when it comes to community. So first of all, it's really about a sense of belonging. So people that are part of a community, they feel a sense of belonging. And second, I think it's super important that members have the feeling that they matter, so that they really matter to each other, but also that they matter to the group. And then there's a third aspect, and I think that's actually super important is, it all comes down to that a community is valuable to people so that there is actually that it's actually meaningful that people join a community. So that means the third aspect is that members really have the feeling that when they join a community, that the needs are fulfilled. So always when you want to build a community, then you should definitely keep in mind that it's valuable to its members, because no one would actually join a community if it's not valuable. Make sense? So what I'm picking up at the broad level is a sense of belongingness. How am I relevant to the community? And what value am I driving from the community? Is my understanding, right? Yes, exactly. And I think you're also asked about community led growth, right? So community led growth is actually something that a lot of people are talking about at the moment. And I think if you put a like simple, then it's really that you turn your users into advocates. So it's not like the concept that you just have customers. And that that is just this basic funnel that we usually know, like, in a marketing term, that people that you sell something to people, and then it ends there, but actually, it goes a step further. So when you actually sell something to people, then you actually turn them into advocates. So it doesn't stop there, you actually nurture the connection, you nurture the relationship. And I actually think I mean, I think a lot of people can relate to that. If someone really tells you about like, either a product or something that they like, and they're really passionate about it, then you would probably really believe that and then that would be way more meaningful to you than if a salesperson would say something like that. Yeah. And I think this is also why it's such a, like, important term at the moment community led growth, because it's really about like, turning your users into advocates, and then they actually engage in the community that they onboard other people. And yeah, I think that is just super important. And I think that's really, really powerful. 04:42 So, you know, 04:45 at the end of the day, whether we are talking about different kinds of marketing, what really matters is word of mouth from people who actually used experience your product and your services. 04:57 Yes, yes. And I think some 05:00 times can sound like, I don't know, I think when you really want to build a community, you have to be honest about it. I think sometimes it really also sounds like a marketing approach, just another marketing approach. And that's how you get like customers best. But I think it's really also about, as I said, a sense of belonging is super important that it's really that you're honest about that, and that you really care for the people in your community so that it's not just a super superficial thing to do, and you just do it because you want to sell. But it's actually something I think you just have to be honest about it and that you really care about the people in your community. Make sense? Make sense. It boils down to where you're operating from, how authentic are you, when you're talking about community that growth? Are you putting 05:52 profits above community? Or are you putting community above profits? And that approach is going to shift everything? What you're going to bring in that conversation? Just curious, Luca? When did you get introduced to the concept of community? And how did you realize that this is what you would like to get involved into? Or? What caught your attention? 06:17 Yeah, actually. So when I think about it, actually, I think I get introduced to the concept of community super, super early. I think probably, I wouldn't have called it community to that time. So I, when I was a kid, I mean, I have a super special bond with my mom, I have to say, and actually, like, a lot of people kind of have raised me, I would say, so a lot of friends of my mom, they kind of they had such an influence on me. And they raised me and they, yeah, they just took care of me, I would say and so I got the sounds really early, when I was a kid, when you really like have a community and you can trust people, you feel a connection. And there's really a sense of belonging, how much trust that can give you and how much stability that can give you and also how that can encourage your growth, right. And so something that I've done for a long time already is like volunteering, work. So I'm a board member at the association, it's called signal solidarity. And actually, that is a really engaged community. And I'm always so impressed. What can happen when you actually join forces, and when you have like a common passion, and when you work towards a common goal. So that is actually something that I always like, yeah, that was just really kind of crazy to me how like what you can actually achieve with the community. And personally, I have been always super passionate about like building meaningful relationships, and also initiatives that actually help others thrive and to support others and the growth. And this is this is actually why then kind of became my job. And this is awesome, I love my job so much, because I can really facilitate growth, I can support people. And for me, it's really about the people. So for me, it's not in the end just about like marketing, but it's really about the people and about the connections. 08:27 I just love it when people talk about it's all about people. And it's all about connection, because I could relate with that, you know, my initial version of community was when people would ask me, Are you involved in any kind of community work. And for me, community work was always associated with social work, when you're not paid for that. And when first time and I got when I heard about community led growth. For me, that was a that was a dichotomy. On one hand, we are talking about community work. On the other hand, we are talking about business growth, how they fit into that. And when I started studying about that, when I started meeting people like yourself, right, I got 09:10 firsthand education for me every interaction that was like sitting in a university and learning from a professor and from somebody who has who has played a very vital role in building this entire concept, entire ecosystem of community. Just curious, look up. Would it be a fair assumption to make that we can build communities and we can actually go for community led growth in all industries? I'm in product industry service industry. 09:40 Tell me more about that. You have you have been instrumental in putting together a community for software developers. 09:47 So let's say tomorrow, you were to work with 09:51 a product company like Apple or 09:56 let's say, Tesla 09:59 how 10:00 that community. Sure, in that segment. 10:06 I mean, I think you can basically translate the concept of community to basically a lot of industries. And as you said, I mean, not every community is related to a business, obviously, now it's becoming more and more important to build brand communities. And obviously, that's something that I do as part of my job, but also what I've talked about regarding the volunteering work, that's not a brand community, but that's actually just a community because people share the same passion and purpose. Yes, exactly. So it's really about the purpose. And so basically, you can translate it to any setting, I would say. But as I as I said, at the beginning, it's really about like, meeting members needs, and really identifying the pain points. So if you don't offer any value, no community will be billed. So I think it's really about identifying, okay, at worst, what might be a pain point, what's maybe something that actually people need, because if there's no value at all, then no one will engage in your community. And I think that's always so important to always ask yourself, Okay, what do I actually offer to people? And why should they even join my community? In our case, for example, with developers, so there is so much going on in the tech universe, and people always want to learn, they want to gather knowledge. And that's actually also why they connect with each other, and they learn from each other. And they also kind of educate each other and onboard each other. So I think this is something there is kind of a pain point that they want to get more knowledge, they want to learn more. 11:56 As I said, regarding, like, the volunteering work I do, it's really about the common purpose. And we have, like a shared identity, I would say, I think this is also something super important when it comes to community is kind of gives you part of identity. Right? So I think when when you think about the communities you might be part of or that you have ever joined in your life. Usually there's like, part like that kind of shapes identity, and I think that's super important. Yeah. And, yes, I think you can actually translate it to like, a lot of industries, and then a lot of areas, but there always needs to be value, otherwise it won't work. Yeah, you know, I can actually loop it back to when you spoke about a sense of belonging. There's a sense of identity as well, that I belong to so and so group I belong to so and so Association, I belong to so and so brand, people take pride in saying that we use Apple, right, we Samsung, we use iOS, we use Android, we take pride in saying that, right? So yeah, you know, also something you said, so beautiful in during the last conversation, you said people can definitely copy your product or service. 13:13 They cannot copy the sense of community. 13:17 So when you when you said that the sense of community cannot be copied. You continue to play in my head. And I could not wait to ask you. Hey, look, what does it mean, when you say sense of community cannot be copied? Tell me more about that. 13:37 Yeah, it's actually something that I really believe in. Because at the moment, of course, like people can always copy your ID, yes, people can start a business. I mean, it's really difficult to start a business, of course. But 13:53 yeah, you can copy so many things. But I think like really the community and the sense of belonging, you cannot copy at all. So because a community is really about the people, and then they engage. And I think something that is also super important about community and what we just talked about, like community led growth, that you turn people actually into advocates, that is something that you cannot copy that people connect with each other the relationships that they have, and I think, yeah, this is just a why I think you really cannot copy this community feeling. And that's why it becomes more and more important, because especially right now, building products can be super easy. There are so many low code options how you can build something super easily. But yeah, the sense of community you can definitely not copy. 14:47 Now, let's consider a community is a product or a service. 14:52 Right? And as you said that anybody can actually start a company. Start a business right now 15:00 Now I personally believe that starting a community and ensuring that the community continues to thrive are two different things. 15:08 What according to you are the best ways to build a community and ensure it continues to thrive? 15:16 I think there's actually a super important point that you mentioned there that there are definitely a lot of different stages in a community journey, right. So I think there might be some people who just start a community and it's kind of like a cult, like the seed stage, that it's really there. It's really about like nurturing relationships, you really have to put a lot of time and effort into nurturing that, because otherwise, I think the community will be dead quite quickly. And so you always have to consider when you establish a community strategy, you always have to consider at what stage Am I actually in? Am I actually in the seed beginning stage? Or am I already? Like, is my community already growing? Do I have to already? Or do I actually have members and already grows organically? And 16:15 I think this is definitely something always to consider. Because when you start a community, it really takes a lot of time to really, yeah, a lot of effort also to onboard your community members. While I think actually onboarding is one of the really main things, but also when you start a community, I think, reaching out to like the very first members you have getting in touch with them finding out okay, why did they even join my community? What is valuable to them? What can I maybe improve to make it even more valuable to them? This is definitely something that we do a lot with all our programs. So at Pomona, when we start a program, a community program, we always ask ourselves, okay, what might be valuable to our community members, but we don't just say like, Okay, now we're starting the program, because we think it's valuable. But, of course, we ask, like the community members that we have, and we ask them, Is that actually something that wouldn't be valuable to you? Okay, and if we would build it? How would you like to see this being built, because this is also something, I'm managing the kimono Champion Program. So this is a program for our most dedicated and invested community contributors. So it's kind of like an ambassador program. And when I started that, I did like a feedback session with some of our community members, I asked them what they liked about the idea if this is something they would like to draw, and what would actually what kind of rewards would they like to see things like that, and from this feedback, I get so many insights. So I think that starting a community that is super important talking to people, but then actually at a later stage, it changes a little because I think, then things get more complex, and you actually have to put more structure into your community. And I think this is probably something that will happen later. So the voice of the customer is extremely important, whether you are onboarding, whether you are growth phase, or the majority or in the thriving phase. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. And I think it's something that you always have to consider what stage you're actually in if you want to build a strategy, because otherwise your strategy won't be successful. 18:45 And I'm sure that's another session that I'll have to take from you in terms of what could be the possible strategy, when you're dealing with this product or that service or this product or that service? You know, my assumption is, look, and you are the you're an expert in that my limited experience is that doing all that in person is much easier and effective. And just curious in the last two years, on one hand, the pandemic has changed the way world has witnessed businesses. But at the same time, it's only in the last two years, I've started to hear about community led growth. So how has pandemic changed the community dynamics, and the ways to engage the communities since people cannot meet in person but often? 19:35 Yes, so actually, the pandemic had like a lot of influence on the whole community industry. Definitely. I actually think also the pandemic has kind of shown us even more how important community is also not just a brand community but also like a personal community, that you feel a sense of belonging that even when you're alone at home, that you have 20:00 People you can count on that you feel connected to. And I think the pandemic just showed us so much how important that is. And in terms of community led growth and brand communities, I think, actually, I even think during the pandemic, so many companies started looking for community members, because they realized how important that is. And that it's actually not just marketing, but that you, of course, you need marketing, you need the awareness stage, but you also need someone taking care of your community, really nurturing your community members, nurturing your users. And then as I said, turning them into advocates. And for us, actually, before the pandemic, we were not everything, but I think almost everything was on site. So that was actually quite a change. And we have a really, really international community. So we have like a big community in Brazil, a big community and Russia, India, in Germany. And actually, then during the pandemic, of course, we had to adapt super quickly, because we couldn't meet outside anymore, people were at home, but also for us, actually opened new opportunities, because we were actually, then we were actually able to also meet people, kind of even though it's virtual, but we were able to actually go to a meet up in India or in Brazil, and actually meet our community members. And it was so nice for me to also be in touch so often with like our community members from all around the world. So I actually think there are some things that, yeah, face to face interaction. I mean, yeah, I just think it's super important from time to time to time. And I also know that our community members, they really miss that. And it's something that always comes up. But on the other hand, there are so many opportunities. Also, with like online communities, building online communities, you can reach completely different target groups that you before weren't able actually to reach. And for us, that was really, really a great opportunity to also meet people where they are, and actually be more in touch with them. This is so fascinating, because what we are discussing right now, Apple implemented that way back, right? Apple ensure that anyone who buys a product gets into the ecosystem continues to buy more, continues to consume more. So which is definitely a success story. But at the same time, if you look at the airline industry, it's the rewards point that they started giving, right? Or the hospitality industry is where hotels started to hand over the reward points. Even they have been doing this for the longest period of time. And yet, especially in the airline industries, there's a switch people have witness, they'd be very comfortable to move from one airline to another airline, what's your take on that? How's the rewards and the recognition associated with the community? 23:13 I actually think that's crucial. I think, like rewards or I mean, rewards can be a lot of things, right. But I think definitely recognition is super important that you show people that you see them, that you actually adjust to meet the needs. And that's also how they see actually, that there are seen. 23:37 And I think that's super crucial. Because I mean, we also know for ourselves, right? I think that's just how we are as humans, we kind of want to feel seen, we want to feel rewarded, and reward can I mean, for maybe some communities reward us actually, you get swag, you get this, you get that but maybe a reward is also people take care of you, you actually they reached out to you. It's a special bonding i. So I think rewards and recognition that can go in many different directions. But I just think it's super crucial. Especially when we talk about turning users into advocates. I think they're always they you always kind of need that people. Of course, they will ask, okay, why should I join? Why should I join this community? And I think one reward might be also knowledge or that you can follow the same person that you connect, because you have the same passion or the same vision, things like that. But I think actually this is also really the job of people working in the community industry. 24:47 Recognizing people really showing that they matter. And I think so that's super, super crucial. Yeah, recognizing that they matter. They are relevant and ensuring that they extract together 25:00 lot of value, since we're talking about rewards and recognition, and that could be a possible challenge, if not done well, good for the community growth, what are the challenges in building a community, according to Luca? 25:14 Yeah, so I think, obviously, there can always be like challenges. So when building a community, I think what we talked about before is actually identifying the pain points and really offering well value. That's, for me, the most crucial part, definitely identifying the challenge itself could be a big challenge. That could be the challenge, but especially like the pain point why people join. 25:41 And yes, exactly, and also then offering the value. Because if you just want, if you just start a community, because you want to drive sales will probably not work, because no one will get something out of it. And I think this will be, or can be probably a main challenge. So you don't offer enough value. That could be definitely a challenge. And then obviously, when starting a community is also about like that people actually hear about your community. So you also need to meet people where they are. And that's why I think that can be always a challenge that people never heard of your community, and they never heard of your community, they most likely won't join your community. So I think this is then also the question for you. Okay, who is actually my target group? Who are the people that I want in my community? Because I think that's a crucial first step. Because I think if you just say, I want everyone to be part part of my community that just won't work, you always need to identify the niche. And then you can ask yourself, Where do I actually meet those people? How do I actually reach out to those people. And I think it's not just about like, I don't know, sending 100 Twitter tweets and posting on LinkedIn, because that also won't have a value. But it's really about like constant like that you actually also create content and that you create things that are valuable to your target audience. And that's how you actually engage people. So yeah, I think one of the main challenges can definitely be not offering enough value. And the second one that people don't hear about, you really have to identify where you meet people. Obviously, there can be also other challenges. But I think those are two main things that I feel 27:35 what a beautiful shift I could actually experience. Because till now, we were only talking about 27:42 being in a community and looking at what are the possible challenges that I might come across, which I did not even consider is how am I? How am I attracting the right kind of audience in the community? Because even if there's one person who's not in alignment to the values, and the purpose of the community can actually spoil the entire ecosystem. 28:05 Now, that brings me to another question. 28:11 How do you identify and handle people might be, 28:17 who might not be in alignment with the values and the purpose of the community? And they're only there to take from the community rather, provide? So? 28:33 Yeah, actually, that's super important for him. Right. And I think something that is actually crucial for that, first of all, is that you know, yourself, what are my values? Or what are the community values? And what are our guidelines? So I think it's important. Yes, exactly. I think it's super important to be clear about what are our guidelines. So having a code of conduct, where you actually specifically say what you want and don't want, is super important. Because sometimes we assume that people know everything. And that's just something you should know that you don't do this or don't do that. But I think you cannot expect people to always know that, especially considering when you have an international community, there are so many cultural differences, maybe in one culture, this, some things will be fine. In another culture, that's actually a no go. And I think being super explicit about that. What you want and what you don't want, I think that is super important so that you are aware of that yourself. And then you talked about values. I think that is something also really crucial. So that was actually a project we are working on at the moment. I've come on that we are identifying together with our community, our core community values, because I believe we have a really strong 30:00 culture if you want to say so, even though I feel it's super important that people don't have the feeling that they always have to fit into the culture, but it's really like, culture add on. So probably our community will always change, the more people join. But that's actually a good thing. So I actually, I want to work on that. And that is definitely something that we want to see. Because each and every community member should bring their different their personal traits. And so it also shaped the community. But I think it's super important. That's why we don't want to say this is the culture that we have, we want to stick to that. And we never want to change that. But instead, we should be super clear about the values that we have. And this is why it's super important to identify the community values that you have. And in the best scenario, you do that together with our community. And this is something actually we are working on at the moment. And I think it's super, super crucial step, also to say, to always refer back to that and to say, Hey, this is actually what we want to encourage, this is what we want to see. And otherwise, you cannot really expect people to always be aligned with your values with your community Code of Conduct if you just don't have it in place. And maybe then someone asks you like, okay, what are actually our valid values are your values, and you're like, Well, I don't even know. 31:28 So I think that's super important. But obviously, also, protecting your community members is really important. So if there, so if people really constantly do things that don't align with your code of conduct, then definitely it's also important to protect other community members. And to make sure I think that's your responsibility as a community leader to also make sure that others are protected, that absolutely people feel safe in a community that your community is inclusive, things like that. I think that's super crucial. And I think that's also my role as a community leader, to really make sure that people are protected. Yeah, yeah. You know, as easy as it may sound, that builder community, what does that bring some people together, and start moving towards that purpose, I'm sure there's a science and art to that, because there's several traits involved. On one hand, we are talking about that we would like to have people from diverse backgrounds so that they can bring in diverse perspectives. And that's where the community, the overall 32:36 collective intelligence of the group moves to the next level. So that's one part of it, at the same time you would like to be, we would like to take care of the values and be protective of the purpose and the values that we would like to have in the organization at the same time, we cannot have any element coming in that might spoil or disrupt the boat. So there are several traits attached to back. 33:02 Understanding, right. Yes, definitely. And I think, also, really taking that into account, how inclusive is your community, actually, I think that is super, super crucial. And I think you just summarized it really well. So there are a lot of different areas. And they all go hand in hand, I would 33:24 look up as I'm just looking at different communities. You know, it's like, if you look at different organizations as well, 33:33 in an organization, you will find people working together. And after some time, a group of people will move out and create another organization and will become the competition to the first organization. If you look at different associations as well, whether it's a rotary club, the Lions Club, and the different clubs, the gym, 33:52 signs for clubs in the world, right? There are clubs who are working together, and after some time, you will find a group of people will come out and create another competition for the very 34:04 essence from which you learned everything. So how do you as a community leader hold boundaries in place where they don't make subcommittees and move out of the same? 34:19 Actually, I think that's a super common thing. I think we talked about different stages before, right? So like, when you have like the seed stage, then 34:30 your community grows. And I think like kind of the very last stages, that sub communities, then there are sub communities and that kind of the community spreads out. Because when your community gets really big, I think that's really really common that there may be this one topic isn't enough anymore, but then there are different sub topics. And for example, for our community. We obviously have the kimono community as a whole but 35:00 We have our local meetup groups and in like a lot of areas, there are actually meetup organizers who organize their own events, and they build their own communities. And obviously, they also have their own like guidelines standards. But I think something that's super important is that this is all under the umbrella of the main community, and that you make sure that there are some things for example, as I said, with the code of conduct, that's just non negotiable, that people abide to the code of conduct or the community values. Probably, of course, there is a different dynamic in every subgroup. And I think that's completely normal. And I actually think that's also a positive thing. I mean, that shows like your community grows, and there are so many different aspects. And you can also, like, connect to so many different people. And then there might be the subgroups, but I think it's super important that they, that there's always this umbrella, and that you make sure that some things are just non negotiable, and that 36:05 they also always get back to you and that you also offer them always like 36:13 events or things like that, where everyone comes together. And I think then you can really benefit from that. So I think it's just maybe what you're referring to, if you just say, Okay, do whatever you want, and now your own community. I mean, that's fine, if that's something you want. But in an ideal scenario, everyone can learn from each other. And this is why, then also, for example, as a company, it's the responsibility to bring actually everyone together. So for example, we have an annual conference. So each year, we actually have two different conferences. And that's where the whole community gathers, and like people from all over the world, they connect with each other. And I think that's super important, too. As I said, In the beginning, like the sense of belonging, that you really feel the sense of belonging, but within the whole community are not just within your subgroup, but you are actually part of something bigger. 37:13 makes so much sense makes so much sense. You know, on the other hand, on the inside, I'm just experiencing that, probably 1000s of years back when religions were formed, 37:25 they would have also formed with a common purpose, to build awareness to raise consciousness and people. 37:31 At the same time there was, there's an element of sense of identity, there's an element of sense of belonging as well. 37:38 But the very fact the very basic essence, because of which religions came. 37:45 Today, if you look at religions divide, 37:49 what do you see? Is the future of communities? At Do you think that at any point in time, it will become a reason for division and for humanity? 38:00 I belong to an apple community, you belong to Samsung community, let's assume, or vice versa? Do you think that could be a possible reason for the division as well? 38:13 That's a good question. I think in the end, it's really about belonging. And obviously, sometimes when you belong to something that can also exclude others, right. And 38:25 this, I don't belong to that. Definitely. So I think there's always a threat 38:32 that you might be excluding other people. And then there are two sides. And I think, also something we probably see in the world at the moment that there are like two sides. And I think this is definitely something we want to prevent. So as I said, community in my understanding, community should always be inclusive, even though it can be the case that people are excluded. 38:58 In the ideal scenario, I actually think like, when people really feel a sense of belonging, and when they really feel that they have people in the network, they can trust that they can learn from each other. That's a positive thing. So for me, 39:16 that is actually the goal of community. But I think there's always the threat that things like that happen. But this is also then for us, as the community leaders to make sure that actually the community is inclusive, that you don't exclude other people. 39:34 Yeah, so I think this is something we see. And I think there's always a threat. And I think it's something we we cannot just say, Oh, this is something that won't happen and will never happen. But things like that we have to actively make sure that it doesn't happen and we have to actively prevent that because otherwise, you're probably right. Things like that can happen because you know, for as much as we're talking 40:00 Community lead growth, it's not that we have not experienced that in the past. There was a time when people were very comfortable working with their own family members, and then the concept of tribes. And that's what Ken Wilber talks about in spiral dynamics, right? 40:21 Excuse me. So it has happened in the past, and I'm sure it will happen in the future as well. Now, the point is, how aware how consciously awakened are we who are coming together, either to build communities or coming together to be a part of a community? 40:39 Coming to you look at my last question, you know, you have been in this space for the longest period of time building communities, you love people, you are passionate about bringing people together, making sure people grow together, they move towards a common purpose, there is alignment. Let's assume if there is a book written on Luca, 41:01 what would be the title? 41:05 Actually, I think that's a really interesting question probably. I don't know. I think it would be probably always, 41:14 depending on when you're asked me what, like, what would be the title, but at the moment, I actually thought about it. And at the moment, for me will be I think I told you in our first initial call that when I thought about kind of like, my mantra, it's kind of what's meant for me won't miss me. So I, personally probably would write a book about like, what's meant for you won't miss you because I personally really believe in when you're super passionate about something. And when you really focus on what you're passionate about. Sometimes opportunities just arise that you would have never thought that that's actually a thing. Actually, when I started working in the field of community, I, 42:01 I actually, I always did the things that I was most passionate about. But I didn't think Oh, at some point, I will work in community. And I will do this. And that because for me, when I was younger, that wasn't even an option. I didn't even know that this is a thing. I didn't know that this is a job. And personally, I just followed, like, my passion. And I just followed what I'm most passionate about. And then at some point, I realized, wow, there's like such a big community of community leaders. It's like a whole industry actually. And I didn't even know of that. So and it just brought me there, because I did the things that I was most passionate about. So yeah, I think, as I said, I think like, what's meant for me or what's meant for others? If they really believe in that, then this won't miss them. And this is probably right now, what I would call my book or what the title would be. Thank you. Thank you so much, Luca. And and this is so fascinating, because, you know, at one point in time, the only professions available in the market work either you could be a doctor, engineer or lawyer. Right. But now, the world is opening up for as long as you've been able to identify your gifts, your talents, your superpowers, there's an industry out there and even if there is no industry, I'm sure you can go and reach to look to start a community altogether. Luca, thank you so much, whatever interacting with you. Thank you, thank you so much for inviting me it was a real pleasure to be here. pleasures all mine and thank you so much and look forward to interact with you as the martial head to build more soulful, purposeful communities in the world. With all of them they can come together when the need be, and then they can work on their respective parts. Otherwise, so thank you so much. Thank you