Immanual Joseph

Gaurav: 00:02 Immanual, thank you so much. Such a pleasure having you here on the podcast x months, right? 00:10 It's such a pleasure to be here with you. 00:13 You know, I've heard so much about you the kind of work that you do. And our initial conversations have left a deep impression on me. So, so looking forward to have this conversation and see how the conversation unfolds and how our future folds. So thank you for accepting our invitation. 00:38 Wanted to be here? 00:38 Yeah. You know, I remember the last conversation where you spoke about your journey, you're an inspiration. You call yourself cancer scientist, you have been a TEDx speaker. 00:54 And there are so many things to talk about in your life. But I would love to understand those initial years in your life, which have shaped you become who you are today. So let's take a dive. 01:13 You know, I like to believe that the greatest influence of my life, and what sets the moral compass for me are the stories I listened to lying down on my mother's lap. I grew up in Chennai. And it is a very different Chennai, it was a very different Chennai than the one you see now. It was much quieter, calmer. And we had this big front yard, kind of a garden that led to this to the outdoors. And the Sunday routine. And again, remember this was in the early 80s, there was not too much of an influence from television, or programming or things like that. It was a much quieter life, a slower life. So our Sunday afternoon routine was I would be lying down on my mother's lap. And she would tell me stories, and gently scratching my head, and it was heaven. But she was such a powerful storyteller. And she always had stories that had morals that had some life values and guidances. And more than anything else, more than all the subjects I have learned. It is the stories that have stuck to me. And I think that's one of the biggest beacons says that I've had by 02:54 in my life so far. Yeah, thank you. Any such story that continues to guide you today. That continues to be your lighthouse, when you are stuck, and you're looking for some decision to make, and you revisit that story that you may want to share. 03:14 There are so many one that comes to me and it's kind of a dark story. So so this lady finds a baby mangos abandoned in the woods. She brings the mangoes into her home and brings it up as her own child. Then Soon after, she has her own baby. And she often leaves the mangoes and the baby together, and she goes out. So one day she goes out to get water in a pot, those big metal pots that they have, like, so she goes out to get some water. And as she enters, she sees the Mongoose running out and it's got blood on its mouth. And our immediate thought is, oh no, the Mongoose has bitten my baby. And she screams at the moments she says I brought you up like a time How dare you do this. So this metal pot filled with water. She crushes it on the head of the Mongols, and then dies there on the spot. And she rushes in and she finds a baby alive and well. And right next to the baby is a cobra that the Mongoose that kills so all the Mongols have been doing was protecting the baby and just a moment of haste unconsidered action and completely changed her actions. I think about this often, sometimes, even in the corporate setting, right? We see something. We have a whole layer of judgment We build around us. And we say, Okay, this is the truth, my truth. And we act on it in a moment of haste. But if only we stop, analyze the situation and act accordingly. how different the different the outcomes could be. 05:20 Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And, you know, it brings back home the importance of questioning your judgments. Because otherwise what will be left with us would be regrets and kills him. And I'm just curious, what are those case decisions that you have taken in your life that you are regretful of any guilt that you have been holding on to for yourself? 05:51 I have made I would think, a lot of decisions that I have done back and looked and said, Maybe this was not the best thing to do. But where I am right now, in the in my journeys, at this point in time, I have come to realize that everything has happened for a reason. And there is no reason why anything should have happened in a different way than they should have happened. Every experience has been a teacher, and there are no good or bad teachers. 06:31 Yeah, I'm not surprised that you are a teacher. And you teach science to students as well, having having done business having worked in different organizations, so you chose to be a teacher, you love calling yourself a teacher, why is it so? 06:52 So in my particular setting at this point, as a teacher, and I shared a little bit of my about my students last time in our conversation as well. It is not just simply teaching science. And I do love teaching science, trained in that profession, in many roles, and for many years. But more than that, we live in an era time where information is not King, you can access information anywhere. When I was growing up, the person who had information held the power, but now Google has distributed that everywhere, right? So I don't see myself as a distributor of information, or knowledge. But I see myself as a person who models behaviors. And my hope is that I inspire people, the young minds that I work with, to see the possibilities of positive behavior in their own lives. Because some of my students come from difficult circumstances, many of my students are at risk. And I believe that my role here is more than being a science teacher to be a influence, a positive influence, or they can look at and say, if this person can do it, so can I. 08:24 That's all. Yeah, you know, this is so beautiful, but because when you're talking about when you 08:30 were talking about that, at times, we take decisions in haste. At the same time, we also spoke about that all the dots would connect at the end of the journey. 08:45 And there could not be a better way of doing the things that you did in the past. Don't you see this as some kind of dichotomy here. So on one hand, we are saying that we should not we should always revisit our judgments. On the other hand, we are saying whatever happens happens. So how do you look at that? 09:06 I think it is a question of choice. And the choice is not about situations it is about in the moment, but the faculties that are available to you with the knowledge that you already have. What choice are you making? That's going to create harmony? The key word here is harmony. Yes, there are many ways to cross the forest. But we all have to cross the forest and we all will get there. irrespective of which path we take. And the paths we take the choices we make. In that moment. If we are given that ability to do so with our faculties as long as we are acting on it, and not being apathetic or just sitting around on it. It's fine. It doesn't matter. But the choice that we are called to make in the moment is In my mind, asking, whatever I am doing right now, am I doing it with harmony in mind, not just for myself, but for anyone and everybody around me. And also, can I make the choice to let go of my attachment to the experience, just do what I can and simply move forward one step at a time, you know, there is a saying, We do not need to know, the end of the forest, all we need to be able to see is the end of where the light of light stops. 10:40 Wow, what a beautiful way of putting it together. In a you spoke about harmony, and I know, one of the overarching theme of your life is compassion. You also spoke about that, at times, just do things that is harmonious for yourself and others as well. Now, how do you look at the complete scenario when you are operating from a space or creating harmony for yourself and others, and yet the other person is not able to see that? And is considering you as if you're doing something bad for the person with ill intentions? How do you manage that? Because it might leave the other person with a lot of bitterness? 11:26 What the question I ask is, what power Am I giving to the other person in my mind? The power that anybody has on my life is the power that I give them. If in my mind, their emotions, their the way they are seeing the world. And the way I think my words and my actions are influencing them. If all of that has a lot of weightage on me, then yes, I'm, I suffer, I undergo suffering. But if I realize that at the end of the day, I have done the best I can. But I do not have control over anyone else's emotions. And that is what the universe do handle. That's, you know, I'm not going to overstep my role. And as long as I approach life with that humility, that I'm not responsible for anyone else's emotions or concentration, but I'm just doing the best I can. And that surrender creates space, it allows me and it gives me the energy to move forward and see this. And I would say this is not something I am at this point. This is something that I asked fire for. This is what I tried to do. But I fail more often than not than not. But this is my beacon. This is my goal. This is what I'm trying to get to. And eventually, hopefully someday I will realize that 12:57 you know this so interesting. Today I was sitting with somebody who was walking on this path of Akira was walking on the path of detachment who was walking on his own path, and I was talking to him, I said, How can you hold that space where the other person can find that whatever you're doing is good as in alignment to Therma. And he said, You can't do much about that. You just have to watch yourself. Just observe yourself what's happening. I get it. And the moment I get it, I experience a lot of fear as well. Am I ready to deal with that fear? Probably not. Emmanuel, you talk about harmony, you talk about compassion. Let me bring a couple of other words as well in the melting pot. And let's see what we make out of that. There are words like empathy. Sympathy, how do differentiates when you're talking about compassion, empathy, sympathy, harmony? 14:02 Now, that's a powerful question. And one of my go to analogies for this, is imagine that you're walking on a long and lonely road with a friend. And there is a pit in the middle of that road. And your friend falls into that pit. Now, you could of course, be walking on, it's not your problem, you're not the one suffering. So that is apathy. Or you could stop and look at that person. And you're looking down at the person you're standing on the top, you're looking down at this person and you tell this person Hey, I wish you would be careful. I'm so sorry for you. A lot like the Facebook's or you know, I feel so sorry for you anything right? There is no action there. And there is an element of judgment. That is sympathy. Or you could be so moved by the other part. Since expedience, you emotionally resonate with that person. And so you jump into the pit with the other person for a while it looks like the right thing to do. But the problem is by jumping into the pit, you yourself had taken away your power to make a difference to be a solution. That emotional resonance is empathy. Or the other option is that you notice the suffering, you do not have any judgments about why this has happened. You'll feel the pain of the person that is suffering. And then you say, what can I do about it. And that might be you have to walk away from this place, go to the next town, find a ladder, get somebody's help. And it might in that moment, it might look like that is a difficult decision to do. But ultimately, the intent is alleviating the suffering. So that is what compassion is 16:07 your fault. So sympathy has got an element of judgment. Empathy has an element of experiencing the same emotion. And compassion has gotten the limit of action in the game, is my understanding, right? The simple distinction. You know, let's double click on empathy. And I would like to dig deeper into the compassion part for sure. Because Buddhism talks about compassion and the way they talk about compassion, they bring in an element of suffering as well. So we'll come there. But before that, let's talk about empathy. You know, one of the cliched statement that I've heard is empathy is getting into the other person's shoes. And I'm a firm believer that you cannot experience the pain that I'm going through neither physical pain, nor psychological pain, nor emotional pain. But at the same time, science says that there's something called mirror neurons. And that says, if you just watch somebody who has just burned his hands, you can experience that the different experiments the scientists are doing, where if you just are looking at a hand, a hand which is coming from here, which is plastic hand, and there's a knife cutting that hand, you will experience that pain, you will get a shot, and that would get registered in the MRI. What's your take on this? How does that work? How does mirror neurons work? 17:36 No, empathy is a very real biological thing. And even at the biological level, it is distinct from compassion. So there is work on this front being done, and published at Dr. Tanya singers lab at Max Planck Institute. And they basically, they did an fMRI study, to understand which parts of the brain are activated in empathy, and which parts of the brain are activated by compassion. And what they found was that it was completely distinct areas of the brain. And, and they also found that the parts of the brain that are activated during compassion are empowering and rooted in happiness and positive effect, as opposed to empathy, which is activating regions of the brain that activity negative effect. In fact, there have been functional, or I'm sorry, practical studies done, where they follow up the experience of empathy and compassion, with action to see whether people would actually help or not help people who have gone through who are going through struggle. This is all experimental conditions in the lab. What they found was that people who have gone through compassion training, actually facilitate solutions help people who are struggling, as opposed to empathic people who are so caught up in the pain, that they are unable to act. So this is empathy distance. The beautiful thing is, there is no compassion fatigue, but there is empathic distance. 19:26 Because as you said, that in empathy, there are chances where people get stuck with the emotion. Got it and you use the word emotional fatigue. Now, empathy, fatigue, now, empathic distress, distress. 19:42 There was this idea called compassion fatigue that was thrown around, but people are, again, as we need to remember that this is all semantics for the most part. But as we as scientists, as we try to understand and distinguish one versus the other The people are saying that there is no compassion fatigue, because compassion does not involve you to be entangled into an emotion. Whereas empathy allows you to be entangled in emotion without action. So that is why you get into distress mode. 20:16 Got it? Now, let's take one step forward. Now, as I mentioned, when we were talking about compassion, there's another term called suffering. When I am suffering, and I could suffer from any, anything I could have suffering that I'm dealing with, it could be the loss of a family member, it could be loss of business, it could be loss of face value, or anything that I have constructed in my mind, and the psychological loss that I've been dealing with, when I'm suffering, how can I actually offer compassion to that person? How do these two things work together? 20:59 If you're suffering, you cannot truly give to another person, you cannot give what you do not have you might overextend yourself. But that comes from a place of instability, unsustainability. To be truly compassionate, you need to have a full bucket. And what I mean by that is, you need to be able to address your own deficits, your own lack in the beginning, before you can help anybody else meaningfully. It's kind of like what you see in the airplane, right? The air, the oxygen masks drop. And they ask you to put it on yourself before you put it on the person next to you. Even if that person is young, or unable or whatever. It's simply because if we don't get oxygen in your brain, your brain cannot fully function. 21:59 Simply precisely, right? So there's so much suffering already in the world. I mean, every second person that I speak to, and the moment I connect with the person at the deepest possible level, I realize there are so many sorrows that we have been operating from. People are carrying so many traumas, there are so many wounds that we have been holding on to, there are so many unresolved issues that we have been dealing with. And then from that space, how can I expect the other person to offer compassion? And that to take an action that will help me to get out of the challenge that I'm dealing with? Yeah, absolutely. 22:44 I think of Mother Teresa. And you know, the amount of lives she has changed with her compassion. In the end, people will notice that she will not cry, she would witness the most painful situations and people, but she will not cry. And somebody wants asked her about it, apparently. And she said, I have no more tears left. But her actions continued all the way to the end. So you don't have to actually do you demonstrate emotion. In compassion, you the feeling that is enough to provoke action is all that is needed. In fact, there was a study done on nurses, and the young nurses, the not so experienced ones, as opposed to the very experienced nurses. They found that the younger nurses responded very actively to suffering, you could see the the flapping action that you you, you expect from a person who's witnessing that kind of pain for the first time. But people who have had 2030 years and that meant they were not reacting in the same way. But who do you think that better service and game to the patient? Right? It was because of the older people, they were able to set their emotions aside and focus on the action by simply observing what was needed to help in a moment. 24:15 And I think that's where it's extremely important to be watchful of your emotions, and keep it at one side when you know that they could create a bottleneck in your action. So that's where I think the concept of Karma comes in the game. And that's where I think that's the conversation that probably Arjuna would have had with Lord Krishna when he was standing at the crossroads 24:45 Absolutely. You know, I think of this I'm sorry, I but I when you say that I think of that movie either the story of that movie or then call Sheikha In for the, for our viewers who do not know that story. The story is that cow Chica a young monk, who has mastered all kinds of mantras and Tantras, and everything, and he goes out in bed searching for arms. Just before then, a bird had pooped on his head and woken him from his meditation. So he looks at the bird, and he burns it with his anger. And so when he goes to get arms, this lady who is serving her husband, doesn't prioritize them and Corsica becomes angry. And he says, How dare you do this? Do you know who I am? And the lady replies, and she's an ordinary housewife. And she says, You know, I am not a bird that you can burn with your anger. And immediately he realizes that she is not an ordinary woman. And he asked her, How do you know about the bird? He says, because I have learned about karma, from Dharma via the butcher. So he goes to Mithila and finds the butcher. And he expects this person, this person to be enlightened and, and all Seiji looking, but all he finds is a butcher who lives ordinary butchers life. The only thing he notices about dark Nevada is he wakes up in the morning, and gives a wholehearted gratitude and supplication to the Divine, and says, God, whatever you have done, is totally whatever I am, whatever I am doing, is all your plan, allow me to play my role perfectly. And he goes through his day, doing what is considered as unpure. And then at the end of the day, when all is done is done, his tasks is done as tasks well. And the night he goes to bed and says, God, I am grateful for whatever you have made me do, I'm only an instrument in your hands. And he goes to bed. So he realizes Koshka realizes that the real God is is what we find in there are many ways to find God, I guess there are three ways they say in which you find God. But in, in this sense, at least, simply to do your tasks completely without question as part of as being a pencil in the hands of the domain. And 27:28 yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, in Guru Granth, side, G. It's mentioned the holy scriptures of Sikhism. There's a word that is written around cocoa. 27:43 And hokum means whatever your wishes. 27:49 And one surrenders to that. And during one of the conversations, I was talking to this friend of mine Shreya niche, and he said that what we call convenient to be very mindful of, because most of the times we don't even understand, okay, because we don't understand what it means to surrender. What we take as hookworm is our own convenience. Whatever is convenient to me, I will take that as a whole. But something which is not I will start to fight. And as I'm just listening to you, whatever you asked me to do, I shall do that. It's not that easy. 28:29 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It is so difficult to surrender completely. You know, they say, a village heard a voice of God, saying that it was gonna rain. So they all had to assemble in a particular place where they would be safe. And everybody came, but only one of them came with an umbrella. So so everybody says they surrender. But it takes a very few to completely know that it is going to be real. 29:08 Isn't this beautiful? Isn't this so beautiful? I talk about surrender. I talk about Shu Chronos. Probably every day. That's one concept that I talk about. And if I look deep within myself, I don't I have complaints. I do have complaints. Do I surrender? 100%? My answer is no. I think that's what the journey that's what the path that we all are on to. Emmanuel coming back to what we are talking about around compassion. You do a lot of work in evangelizing compassion in workplaces. How does that work because the capitalistic work world that we are a part of where I'm not comfortable with the success of the person who's sitting just next to me, I might be having lunch with and And I am NBS office success. And then we are talking about compassion. How does that work? How does that show up in workplaces? 30:09 Before we became employees, we were human. Even after we became employees, we are still human. We forget that. Sometimes we believe as we walk into a workroom, we have to leave our personalities outside the door, we leave, we have to leave our humanity outside the door. And yes, by trying to treat ourselves as automatons, we accomplish a few things, we find some structure, we set expectations and consequences and so on. And the machine seems to be going well. 30:48 But the problem is, 30:51 in those circumstances, are we as humans living up to our full potential? And the answer is most of the times No. Which is why the statistics show that there is enormous amount of unhappiness, suffering burnout, people quitting in droves, people jumping ship very, very quickly. People leaving managers because they don't have good managers, all of these issues come into place. But the question is, what if we see the possibility of bringing the full human into the workplace? And how can we do that? So my contention is, if the work environment is right, we can inspire people motivate people to bring out the talents that they otherwise don't bring in a well oiled non human Centrex work culture. And the solution for me, the way I think we can do this is by compassion, killing people. And the idea of compassion, skilling is that as humans, we all suffer, we suffer. And we know that the people around us suffer. What if we took a proactive stance on noticing that suffering, and putting up the fires before it becomes big. And the outcome, I contend, is that a place where people are happier, healthier, and are willing to stay longer? There is more loyalty, there is more productivity, more engagement. And there's there's research that shows that that's the case, you know, those human centric workplaces that and compassion centric workplaces that work? And so the question is, helping people realize that it is actually something worth investing in. You know, there's a thing that Abraham Lincoln once said that if you if you have 100 hours to cut a tree, he would spend 90 hours sharpening his axe. So compassion is killing us like that. You don't have to spend that much time, but every day, a little bit of energy in your heart, putting your priorities right, your human priorities right, and understanding that you can be a solution to the suffering. 33:21 And I personally believe that when I'm experiencing a radical compassion for myself, and for other people, I will be happier. And yet, I have come across people who are addicted to suffering. 33:43 What's the science behind that? What does your research say about that? Why would somebody choose to be unhappy? Why would he or she be addicted to suffering? 33:56 For many people, I think a known Devil is better than the unknown Angel. People who are used to being victims like to stay in victimhood. Because it feels safe. You can always fall back on your griping, and you're whining. And it is a painful circle. Yes, but it is a pain that you have wallowed in before. And it's not a stranger to you. And you probably have built friends who also wallow in the same kind of pain as you. So you are in a community of victim support as well. All wallowing in victim mind mindsets. But to realize that you can actually step out of the circle and realize that there is an unlimited flying space for you. is scary, because now you're standing even though with wings on the edge of a ledge and hoping that if you jump you know that if you jump you can soar. But it is an unknown so don't want to take that risk. 35:03 I can so much relate to that because I personally come across people like that, where they're not willing to take the responsibility, as you said that I'm so comfortable. By for, for being a victim, and being in that space, and I don't want to experience what it means to experience possibilities, what it means to experience joy and what it means to experience compassion, forgiveness, kindness, for self and others. And thus, I continue to suffer and suffer more and, and how I manifest those kinds of situations. If I'm not getting that situation where I can actually get into that space of being a victim, I would create more circumstances and does I end up creating that space, not only for myself, but for many new ones and dear ones. Exactly. Exactly. The overarching theme that you have you work with is compassionate. And what you do is that you are the teacher. Now let's take a deeper dive in your work with students. Tell me more about that. What do you do? How do you do it? 36:13 So the population that I currently work with our students who are high school students at risk, because of several circumstances, life situations, or choices they have made, and so on. And primarily, I teach science, but one of the things that I do, and we have here a system called advisory periods, where every day students are assigned half an hour or so, where it can, they can either relax or, you know, do something with the teacher all by themselves. And one of the requests I made to my kids was every day, they would give me 10 minutes of their time or less, or the 30 minutes. And it's a big thing to ask because that's the time that they could be spending on their phones. But somehow they were willing and kind enough interested me enough to say, Okay, we'll give you 10 minutes, we won't touch our phones for those 10 minutes. So for 10 minutes, usually, it's much lesser than that is usually about five minutes or so, for five minutes, I tell them a story and ask them a question. Like the story I shared right now, but usually things that are more relevant to them in their circumstances. And there are so many beautiful stories out there. At the end of it, there's a small question for reflection. Initially, I was thinking, you know, are my students actually even listening? Because, you know, even if I'm telling them, you know, you can think of an 18 year old, a 17 year old, you know, pretending to not hear and kind of looking out because some of these questions are meant to challenge them. Some of them are gray areas, in terms of, you know, our thinking process and morality and so on. So I was wondering, you know, what, so one day I told told my kids, you know, guys, I don't know if I'm really making an impact here. Let's stop this. And I think you should just probably go back to your phones. And my kids, I know. 38:28 We really want your 38:29 stories, enjoy your stories. We might pretend this is one of my my students is, you know, the all these buttons, like he's on his phone. He's not dumbing it down, but he's listening to me. And he does tells me, we might pretend like we don't want to listen, but no, actually we really care. Because it gives us hope. So that, to me is the essence of, of teaching, to inspire students, through our words, through how we treat them. And how we set the stage for because they're going to go out into the world very soon. So how we set the stage for them as they step out into the world. 39:10 So what I'm listening is, it's less about the subject more about the life skills are really holding, holding the space for them where they can express themselves, where they can go beyond dialing in a number or playing a video game on their mobile phones or watching a new series on Netflix or scanning to the Instagram reads. Yeah. You know, and it's so important to work with the age group that you work with, would think what's the biggest challenge that these people are facing these young generation is facing? 39:50 I personally think it is a lack of perspective. We are growing up at least here in this micro cultures that are And I see a majority of youth are growing in a very entitled world where many things become available to them at the push of a button. And they really do not understand the context with which anything comes from. And if only early on, we give them we start giving students a perspective of the world the perspective of real world challenges. So recently, I was invited to give a TEDx talk. And after the talk, one of the questions he asked me was on the similar range, right? If you were to change something about the educational system, what would you change? And what came to me and then what comes to me now is this. Who needs Humpty Dumpty? Who needs to learn Romeo and Juliet and eighth grade? Who needs to learn about Jack? And Joe? How does it really matter? What if we start off our life with a reality check? We are here for a short period of time, 70 years 80 years may look like a long period of time. But it's actually very short. You want to go through a whole lot of experience in your life. As you go through it, here are some things that are going to help. Because what you're doing now is teaching them totally irrelevant things and putting them out into the world and seeing guys survive. It's like an hunger game scenario, right? So let's not do that, let's prepare our students. Let's prepare our children for the real world. Let's tell them that our planet is dying. And we are responsible for a big chunk of it. Let's do what we can, right from the beginning. If we might not make all the difference in the world, but there is some difference we can make. Let's be kind to each other. Let's be nice to each other. That's easier than it seems. Even though everything else the news out there, the politicians out there might tell you otherwise, you believe there is a different world out there. A world of kindness, you can be nice to each other. You can be kind to yourself, you don't have to do to compare yourself to what is there in the media, you don't have to look at Teen Vogue, you don't have to look at fashion models and so on to determine your self worth. No, you are unique, you are beautiful. Let's start with that. We can put Humpty Dumpty as as fun thing to do in the player. We can read about Romeo and Juliet when we have time. But let's read about Man's Search for Meaning. Let's read. Let's read about the things that make us human. And I think that's how we start. 42:41 In the entire concept that you're talking about. I can actually find people in my life, few of my friends, my sister, a couple of my relatives who have been able to nurture their children so well, that children are not only doing well academically, professionally, but I think they are genuinely grounded individuals, where they've been able to embrace themselves as human beings and who they are. And they've been able to keep aside their accomplishments, their academic accomplishments on one side. What do you think is the role of parents in this entire journey, and what shifts are required to ensure that you are show your children in a direction where they can be proud of themselves in years to come? 43:39 I think a confused person cannot offer clarity to anyone. So the first rule as parents, is to have clarity ourselves. When we start as balanced from a place of being confused, but telling and kind of imagining in a way that we are going to guide our children and what we think is the right path. We are confusing them even more the blind lead the blind. So I think our first role as parents is to develop humility. And the first stage of that humility is knowing that we are simply caretakers, you know, it's coming from and I know you know this, God, flee, you can probably quote it for us. Children are not our children but their lives longing for itself. So to see that we do not exaggerate our own role in parenting. And to to keep an open mind. And open mind is knowing that because the child is helpless and completely looks up to you, doesn't mean you know everything, but you are a learner. The moment you become a parent, you have to start learning and the learning is not going to happen. By looking at other parents who are also blind and running around and trying to enroll them in 1000 different courses, but to learn how to recognize the individuality in each of your children, and not to be tied to hard considerations, that, you know, this is the path that is successful for the kid, any path can be successful for the kid, but more than the career paths they take, right from the beginning, is the human part that they are going to take. And how can we enable that. So to start with the humility, to have that learning mindset, right from the get go, and completely dedicate oneself, to grow and learn along with the child, as the child grows, they are going to bring in so much of their generation into your life. And if you say, I'm going to hold on to my generation of living and my generation of thinking, and I'm going to project on them, whatever my values were announcing, values are not important. We need to reinforce those values. That is why we are custodians there. But they're also not become so hardened on certain rules, that we do not recognize that the world that they are living in is going to be different from ours. To give that sense of kind of openness, open sensibility, I think is what we need to start over. This is not a comprehensive list, but definitely a good start. 46:22 You know, I think what you just mentioned about Khalil Gibran, I think the poem itself, puts it together really well when he said Your children are not your children. They are the sons and the daughters of their of life's longing for itself. They come through you, but not for you from you. And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love, but not your thoughts. 46:50 For they have their own thoughts. 46:54 You may house their bodies, but not their souls, for their souls, dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit not even in your dreams. You must strive to be like them. But seek not to make them like you. For life goes not backwards. Not that he is with yesterday, because your children are not your children. They are the sons and the daughters of life's longing for itself. Become through you, but not from you. And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you. Beautiful, Emanuel, I'm sure there is somewhere even you would have faltered to live from this space. 47:42 Oh, I falter every day, every minute. I have no qualms about believing for even for a second, that I am not struggling, or that I do not falter. As everybody does. I'm also on this journey of learning. And, and that journey is hopefully guided by a few fundamental rules, the fundamental rules for me that I have established over time, harmony, compassion, and a vindman where us our planet, and everybody that comes in and goes out of this space will thrive. So it is a journey of discovery. And for some reason I am here. I don't know why. I don't know who I am. I have no idea that I will ever discover that, who I am in this lifetime. But through the faltering I hope I will learn and grow a little bit more every single time. 48:45 And there are miles to go before we sleep. Thank you so much, Emmanuel, our pleasure. Interacting with you was such a pleasure. Listening to your views, listening to your experiences, just being in your presence. I think that itself is so blissful for me. Thank you. 49:07 I'm honored. Thank you Gaurav: 00:02 Immanual, thank you so much. Such a pleasure having you here on the podcast x months, right? 00:10 It's such a pleasure to be here with you. 00:13 You know, I've heard so much about you the kind of work that you do. And our initial conversations have left a deep impression on me. So, so looking forward to have this conversation and see how the conversation unfolds and how our future folds. So thank you for accepting our invitation. 00:38 Wanted to be here? 00:38 Yeah. You know, I remember the last conversation where you spoke about your journey, you're an inspiration. You call yourself cancer scientist, you have been a TEDx speaker. 00:54 And there are so many things to talk about in your life. But I would love to understand those initial years in your life, which have shaped you become who you are today. So let's take a dive. 01:13 You know, I like to believe that the greatest influence of my life, and what sets the moral compass for me are the stories I listened to lying down on my mother's lap. I grew up in Chennai. And it is a very different Chennai, it was a very different Chennai than the one you see now. It was much quieter, calmer. And we had this big front yard, kind of a garden that led to this to the outdoors. And the Sunday routine. And again, remember this was in the early 80s, there was not too much of an influence from television, or programming or things like that. It was a much quieter life, a slower life. So our Sunday afternoon routine was I would be lying down on my mother's lap. And she would tell me stories, and gently scratching my head, and it was heaven. But she was such a powerful storyteller. And she always had stories that had morals that had some life values and guidances. And more than anything else, more than all the subjects I have learned. It is the stories that have stuck to me. And I think that's one of the biggest beacons says that I've had by 02:54 in my life so far. Yeah, thank you. Any such story that continues to guide you today. That continues to be your lighthouse, when you are stuck, and you're looking for some decision to make, and you revisit that story that you may want to share. 03:14 There are so many one that comes to me and it's kind of a dark story. So so this lady finds a baby mangos abandoned in the woods. She brings the mangoes into her home and brings it up as her own child. Then Soon after, she has her own baby. And she often leaves the mangoes and the baby together, and she goes out. So one day she goes out to get water in a pot, those big metal pots that they have, like, so she goes out to get some water. And as she enters, she sees the Mongoose running out and it's got blood on its mouth. And our immediate thought is, oh no, the Mongoose has bitten my baby. And she screams at the moments she says I brought you up like a time How dare you do this. So this metal pot filled with water. She crushes it on the head of the Mongols, and then dies there on the spot. And she rushes in and she finds a baby alive and well. And right next to the baby is a cobra that the Mongoose that kills so all the Mongols have been doing was protecting the baby and just a moment of haste unconsidered action and completely changed her actions. I think about this often, sometimes, even in the corporate setting, right? We see something. We have a whole layer of judgment We build around us. And we say, Okay, this is the truth, my truth. And we act on it in a moment of haste. But if only we stop, analyze the situation and act accordingly. how different the different the outcomes could be. 05:20 Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And, you know, it brings back home the importance of questioning your judgments. Because otherwise what will be left with us would be regrets and kills him. And I'm just curious, what are those case decisions that you have taken in your life that you are regretful of any guilt that you have been holding on to for yourself? 05:51 I have made I would think, a lot of decisions that I have done back and looked and said, Maybe this was not the best thing to do. But where I am right now, in the in my journeys, at this point in time, I have come to realize that everything has happened for a reason. And there is no reason why anything should have happened in a different way than they should have happened. Every experience has been a teacher, and there are no good or bad teachers. 06:31 Yeah, I'm not surprised that you are a teacher. And you teach science to students as well, having having done business having worked in different organizations, so you chose to be a teacher, you love calling yourself a teacher, why is it so? 06:52 So in my particular setting at this point, as a teacher, and I shared a little bit of my about my students last time in our conversation as well. It is not just simply teaching science. And I do love teaching science, trained in that profession, in many roles, and for many years. But more than that, we live in an era time where information is not King, you can access information anywhere. When I was growing up, the person who had information held the power, but now Google has distributed that everywhere, right? So I don't see myself as a distributor of information, or knowledge. But I see myself as a person who models behaviors. And my hope is that I inspire people, the young minds that I work with, to see the possibilities of positive behavior in their own lives. Because some of my students come from difficult circumstances, many of my students are at risk. And I believe that my role here is more than being a science teacher to be a influence, a positive influence, or they can look at and say, if this person can do it, so can I. 08:24 That's all. Yeah, you know, this is so beautiful, but because when you're talking about when you 08:30 were talking about that, at times, we take decisions in haste. At the same time, we also spoke about that all the dots would connect at the end of the journey. 08:45 And there could not be a better way of doing the things that you did in the past. Don't you see this as some kind of dichotomy here. So on one hand, we are saying that we should not we should always revisit our judgments. On the other hand, we are saying whatever happens happens. So how do you look at that? 09:06 I think it is a question of choice. And the choice is not about situations it is about in the moment, but the faculties that are available to you with the knowledge that you already have. What choice are you making? That's going to create harmony? The key word here is harmony. Yes, there are many ways to cross the forest. But we all have to cross the forest and we all will get there. irrespective of which path we take. And the paths we take the choices we make. In that moment. If we are given that ability to do so with our faculties as long as we are acting on it, and not being apathetic or just sitting around on it. It's fine. It doesn't matter. But the choice that we are called to make in the moment is In my mind, asking, whatever I am doing right now, am I doing it with harmony in mind, not just for myself, but for anyone and everybody around me. And also, can I make the choice to let go of my attachment to the experience, just do what I can and simply move forward one step at a time, you know, there is a saying, We do not need to know, the end of the forest, all we need to be able to see is the end of where the light of light stops. 10:40 Wow, what a beautiful way of putting it together. In a you spoke about harmony, and I know, one of the overarching theme of your life is compassion. You also spoke about that, at times, just do things that is harmonious for yourself and others as well. Now, how do you look at the complete scenario when you are operating from a space or creating harmony for yourself and others, and yet the other person is not able to see that? And is considering you as if you're doing something bad for the person with ill intentions? How do you manage that? Because it might leave the other person with a lot of bitterness? 11:26 What the question I ask is, what power Am I giving to the other person in my mind? The power that anybody has on my life is the power that I give them. If in my mind, their emotions, their the way they are seeing the world. And the way I think my words and my actions are influencing them. If all of that has a lot of weightage on me, then yes, I'm, I suffer, I undergo suffering. But if I realize that at the end of the day, I have done the best I can. But I do not have control over anyone else's emotions. And that is what the universe do handle. That's, you know, I'm not going to overstep my role. And as long as I approach life with that humility, that I'm not responsible for anyone else's emotions or concentration, but I'm just doing the best I can. And that surrender creates space, it allows me and it gives me the energy to move forward and see this. And I would say this is not something I am at this point. This is something that I asked fire for. This is what I tried to do. But I fail more often than not than not. But this is my beacon. This is my goal. This is what I'm trying to get to. And eventually, hopefully someday I will realize that 12:57 you know this so interesting. Today I was sitting with somebody who was walking on this path of Akira was walking on the path of detachment who was walking on his own path, and I was talking to him, I said, How can you hold that space where the other person can find that whatever you're doing is good as in alignment to Therma. And he said, You can't do much about that. You just have to watch yourself. Just observe yourself what's happening. I get it. And the moment I get it, I experience a lot of fear as well. Am I ready to deal with that fear? Probably not. Emmanuel, you talk about harmony, you talk about compassion. Let me bring a couple of other words as well in the melting pot. And let's see what we make out of that. There are words like empathy. Sympathy, how do differentiates when you're talking about compassion, empathy, sympathy, harmony? 14:02 Now, that's a powerful question. And one of my go to analogies for this, is imagine that you're walking on a long and lonely road with a friend. And there is a pit in the middle of that road. And your friend falls into that pit. Now, you could of course, be walking on, it's not your problem, you're not the one suffering. So that is apathy. Or you could stop and look at that person. And you're looking down at the person you're standing on the top, you're looking down at this person and you tell this person Hey, I wish you would be careful. I'm so sorry for you. A lot like the Facebook's or you know, I feel so sorry for you anything right? There is no action there. And there is an element of judgment. That is sympathy. Or you could be so moved by the other part. Since expedience, you emotionally resonate with that person. And so you jump into the pit with the other person for a while it looks like the right thing to do. But the problem is by jumping into the pit, you yourself had taken away your power to make a difference to be a solution. That emotional resonance is empathy. Or the other option is that you notice the suffering, you do not have any judgments about why this has happened. You'll feel the pain of the person that is suffering. And then you say, what can I do about it. And that might be you have to walk away from this place, go to the next town, find a ladder, get somebody's help. And it might in that moment, it might look like that is a difficult decision to do. But ultimately, the intent is alleviating the suffering. So that is what compassion is 16:07 your fault. So sympathy has got an element of judgment. Empathy has an element of experiencing the same emotion. And compassion has gotten the limit of action in the game, is my understanding, right? The simple distinction. You know, let's double click on empathy. And I would like to dig deeper into the compassion part for sure. Because Buddhism talks about compassion and the way they talk about compassion, they bring in an element of suffering as well. So we'll come there. But before that, let's talk about empathy. You know, one of the cliched statement that I've heard is empathy is getting into the other person's shoes. And I'm a firm believer that you cannot experience the pain that I'm going through neither physical pain, nor psychological pain, nor emotional pain. But at the same time, science says that there's something called mirror neurons. And that says, if you just watch somebody who has just burned his hands, you can experience that the different experiments the scientists are doing, where if you just are looking at a hand, a hand which is coming from here, which is plastic hand, and there's a knife cutting that hand, you will experience that pain, you will get a shot, and that would get registered in the MRI. What's your take on this? How does that work? How does mirror neurons work? 17:36 No, empathy is a very real biological thing. And even at the biological level, it is distinct from compassion. So there is work on this front being done, and published at Dr. Tanya singers lab at Max Planck Institute. And they basically, they did an fMRI study, to understand which parts of the brain are activated in empathy, and which parts of the brain are activated by compassion. And what they found was that it was completely distinct areas of the brain. And, and they also found that the parts of the brain that are activated during compassion are empowering and rooted in happiness and positive effect, as opposed to empathy, which is activating regions of the brain that activity negative effect. In fact, there have been functional, or I'm sorry, practical studies done, where they follow up the experience of empathy and compassion, with action to see whether people would actually help or not help people who have gone through who are going through struggle. This is all experimental conditions in the lab. What they found was that people who have gone through compassion training, actually facilitate solutions help people who are struggling, as opposed to empathic people who are so caught up in the pain, that they are unable to act. So this is empathy distance. The beautiful thing is, there is no compassion fatigue, but there is empathic distance. 19:26 Because as you said, that in empathy, there are chances where people get stuck with the emotion. Got it and you use the word emotional fatigue. Now, empathy, fatigue, now, empathic distress, distress. 19:42 There was this idea called compassion fatigue that was thrown around, but people are, again, as we need to remember that this is all semantics for the most part. But as we as scientists, as we try to understand and distinguish one versus the other The people are saying that there is no compassion fatigue, because compassion does not involve you to be entangled into an emotion. Whereas empathy allows you to be entangled in emotion without action. So that is why you get into distress mode. 20:16 Got it? Now, let's take one step forward. Now, as I mentioned, when we were talking about compassion, there's another term called suffering. When I am suffering, and I could suffer from any, anything I could have suffering that I'm dealing with, it could be the loss of a family member, it could be loss of business, it could be loss of face value, or anything that I have constructed in my mind, and the psychological loss that I've been dealing with, when I'm suffering, how can I actually offer compassion to that person? How do these two things work together? 20:59 If you're suffering, you cannot truly give to another person, you cannot give what you do not have you might overextend yourself. But that comes from a place of instability, unsustainability. To be truly compassionate, you need to have a full bucket. And what I mean by that is, you need to be able to address your own deficits, your own lack in the beginning, before you can help anybody else meaningfully. It's kind of like what you see in the airplane, right? The air, the oxygen masks drop. And they ask you to put it on yourself before you put it on the person next to you. Even if that person is young, or unable or whatever. It's simply because if we don't get oxygen in your brain, your brain cannot fully function. 21:59 Simply precisely, right? So there's so much suffering already in the world. I mean, every second person that I speak to, and the moment I connect with the person at the deepest possible level, I realize there are so many sorrows that we have been operating from. People are carrying so many traumas, there are so many wounds that we have been holding on to, there are so many unresolved issues that we have been dealing with. And then from that space, how can I expect the other person to offer compassion? And that to take an action that will help me to get out of the challenge that I'm dealing with? Yeah, absolutely. 22:44 I think of Mother Teresa. And you know, the amount of lives she has changed with her compassion. In the end, people will notice that she will not cry, she would witness the most painful situations and people, but she will not cry. And somebody wants asked her about it, apparently. And she said, I have no more tears left. But her actions continued all the way to the end. So you don't have to actually do you demonstrate emotion. In compassion, you the feeling that is enough to provoke action is all that is needed. In fact, there was a study done on nurses, and the young nurses, the not so experienced ones, as opposed to the very experienced nurses. They found that the younger nurses responded very actively to suffering, you could see the the flapping action that you you, you expect from a person who's witnessing that kind of pain for the first time. But people who have had 2030 years and that meant they were not reacting in the same way. But who do you think that better service and game to the patient? Right? It was because of the older people, they were able to set their emotions aside and focus on the action by simply observing what was needed to help in a moment. 24:15 And I think that's where it's extremely important to be watchful of your emotions, and keep it at one side when you know that they could create a bottleneck in your action. So that's where I think the concept of Karma comes in the game. And that's where I think that's the conversation that probably Arjuna would have had with Lord Krishna when he was standing at the crossroads 24:45 Absolutely. You know, I think of this I'm sorry, I but I when you say that I think of that movie either the story of that movie or then call Sheikha In for the, for our viewers who do not know that story. The story is that cow Chica a young monk, who has mastered all kinds of mantras and Tantras, and everything, and he goes out in bed searching for arms. Just before then, a bird had pooped on his head and woken him from his meditation. So he looks at the bird, and he burns it with his anger. And so when he goes to get arms, this lady who is serving her husband, doesn't prioritize them and Corsica becomes angry. And he says, How dare you do this? Do you know who I am? And the lady replies, and she's an ordinary housewife. And she says, You know, I am not a bird that you can burn with your anger. And immediately he realizes that she is not an ordinary woman. And he asked her, How do you know about the bird? He says, because I have learned about karma, from Dharma via the butcher. So he goes to Mithila and finds the butcher. And he expects this person, this person to be enlightened and, and all Seiji looking, but all he finds is a butcher who lives ordinary butchers life. The only thing he notices about dark Nevada is he wakes up in the morning, and gives a wholehearted gratitude and supplication to the Divine, and says, God, whatever you have done, is totally whatever I am, whatever I am doing, is all your plan, allow me to play my role perfectly. And he goes through his day, doing what is considered as unpure. And then at the end of the day, when all is done is done, his tasks is done as tasks well. And the night he goes to bed and says, God, I am grateful for whatever you have made me do, I'm only an instrument in your hands. And he goes to bed. So he realizes Koshka realizes that the real God is is what we find in there are many ways to find God, I guess there are three ways they say in which you find God. But in, in this sense, at least, simply to do your tasks completely without question as part of as being a pencil in the hands of the domain. And 27:28 yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, in Guru Granth, side, G. It's mentioned the holy scriptures of Sikhism. There's a word that is written around cocoa. 27:43 And hokum means whatever your wishes. 27:49 And one surrenders to that. And during one of the conversations, I was talking to this friend of mine Shreya niche, and he said that what we call convenient to be very mindful of, because most of the times we don't even understand, okay, because we don't understand what it means to surrender. What we take as hookworm is our own convenience. Whatever is convenient to me, I will take that as a whole. But something which is not I will start to fight. And as I'm just listening to you, whatever you asked me to do, I shall do that. It's not that easy. 28:29 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It is so difficult to surrender completely. You know, they say, a village heard a voice of God, saying that it was gonna rain. So they all had to assemble in a particular place where they would be safe. And everybody came, but only one of them came with an umbrella. So so everybody says they surrender. But it takes a very few to completely know that it is going to be real. 29:08 Isn't this beautiful? Isn't this so beautiful? I talk about surrender. I talk about Shu Chronos. Probably every day. That's one concept that I talk about. And if I look deep within myself, I don't I have complaints. I do have complaints. Do I surrender? 100%? My answer is no. I think that's what the journey that's what the path that we all are on to. Emmanuel coming back to what we are talking about around compassion. You do a lot of work in evangelizing compassion in workplaces. How does that work because the capitalistic work world that we are a part of where I'm not comfortable with the success of the person who's sitting just next to me, I might be having lunch with and And I am NBS office success. And then we are talking about compassion. How does that work? How does that show up in workplaces? 30:09 Before we became employees, we were human. Even after we became employees, we are still human. We forget that. Sometimes we believe as we walk into a workroom, we have to leave our personalities outside the door, we leave, we have to leave our humanity outside the door. And yes, by trying to treat ourselves as automatons, we accomplish a few things, we find some structure, we set expectations and consequences and so on. And the machine seems to be going well. 30:48 But the problem is, 30:51 in those circumstances, are we as humans living up to our full potential? And the answer is most of the times No. Which is why the statistics show that there is enormous amount of unhappiness, suffering burnout, people quitting in droves, people jumping ship very, very quickly. People leaving managers because they don't have good managers, all of these issues come into place. But the question is, what if we see the possibility of bringing the full human into the workplace? And how can we do that? So my contention is, if the work environment is right, we can inspire people motivate people to bring out the talents that they otherwise don't bring in a well oiled non human Centrex work culture. And the solution for me, the way I think we can do this is by compassion, killing people. And the idea of compassion, skilling is that as humans, we all suffer, we suffer. And we know that the people around us suffer. What if we took a proactive stance on noticing that suffering, and putting up the fires before it becomes big. And the outcome, I contend, is that a place where people are happier, healthier, and are willing to stay longer? There is more loyalty, there is more productivity, more engagement. And there's there's research that shows that that's the case, you know, those human centric workplaces that and compassion centric workplaces that work? And so the question is, helping people realize that it is actually something worth investing in. You know, there's a thing that Abraham Lincoln once said that if you if you have 100 hours to cut a tree, he would spend 90 hours sharpening his axe. So compassion is killing us like that. You don't have to spend that much time, but every day, a little bit of energy in your heart, putting your priorities right, your human priorities right, and understanding that you can be a solution to the suffering. 33:21 And I personally believe that when I'm experiencing a radical compassion for myself, and for other people, I will be happier. And yet, I have come across people who are addicted to suffering. 33:43 What's the science behind that? What does your research say about that? Why would somebody choose to be unhappy? Why would he or she be addicted to suffering? 33:56 For many people, I think a known Devil is better than the unknown Angel. People who are used to being victims like to stay in victimhood. Because it feels safe. You can always fall back on your griping, and you're whining. And it is a painful circle. Yes, but it is a pain that you have wallowed in before. And it's not a stranger to you. And you probably have built friends who also wallow in the same kind of pain as you. So you are in a community of victim support as well. All wallowing in victim mind mindsets. But to realize that you can actually step out of the circle and realize that there is an unlimited flying space for you. is scary, because now you're standing even though with wings on the edge of a ledge and hoping that if you jump you know that if you jump you can soar. But it is an unknown so don't want to take that risk. 35:03 I can so much relate to that because I personally come across people like that, where they're not willing to take the responsibility, as you said that I'm so comfortable. By for, for being a victim, and being in that space, and I don't want to experience what it means to experience possibilities, what it means to experience joy and what it means to experience compassion, forgiveness, kindness, for self and others. And thus, I continue to suffer and suffer more and, and how I manifest those kinds of situations. If I'm not getting that situation where I can actually get into that space of being a victim, I would create more circumstances and does I end up creating that space, not only for myself, but for many new ones and dear ones. Exactly. Exactly. The overarching theme that you have you work with is compassionate. And what you do is that you are the teacher. Now let's take a deeper dive in your work with students. Tell me more about that. What do you do? How do you do it? 36:13 So the population that I currently work with our students who are high school students at risk, because of several circumstances, life situations, or choices they have made, and so on. And primarily, I teach science, but one of the things that I do, and we have here a system called advisory periods, where every day students are assigned half an hour or so, where it can, they can either relax or, you know, do something with the teacher all by themselves. And one of the requests I made to my kids was every day, they would give me 10 minutes of their time or less, or the 30 minutes. And it's a big thing to ask because that's the time that they could be spending on their phones. But somehow they were willing and kind enough interested me enough to say, Okay, we'll give you 10 minutes, we won't touch our phones for those 10 minutes. So for 10 minutes, usually, it's much lesser than that is usually about five minutes or so, for five minutes, I tell them a story and ask them a question. Like the story I shared right now, but usually things that are more relevant to them in their circumstances. And there are so many beautiful stories out there. At the end of it, there's a small question for reflection. Initially, I was thinking, you know, are my students actually even listening? Because, you know, even if I'm telling them, you know, you can think of an 18 year old, a 17 year old, you know, pretending to not hear and kind of looking out because some of these questions are meant to challenge them. Some of them are gray areas, in terms of, you know, our thinking process and morality and so on. So I was wondering, you know, what, so one day I told told my kids, you know, guys, I don't know if I'm really making an impact here. Let's stop this. And I think you should just probably go back to your phones. And my kids, I know. 38:28 We really want your 38:29 stories, enjoy your stories. We might pretend this is one of my my students is, you know, the all these buttons, like he's on his phone. He's not dumbing it down, but he's listening to me. And he does tells me, we might pretend like we don't want to listen, but no, actually we really care. Because it gives us hope. So that, to me is the essence of, of teaching, to inspire students, through our words, through how we treat them. And how we set the stage for because they're going to go out into the world very soon. So how we set the stage for them as they step out into the world. 39:10 So what I'm listening is, it's less about the subject more about the life skills are really holding, holding the space for them where they can express themselves, where they can go beyond dialing in a number or playing a video game on their mobile phones or watching a new series on Netflix or scanning to the Instagram reads. Yeah. You know, and it's so important to work with the age group that you work with, would think what's the biggest challenge that these people are facing these young generation is facing? 39:50 I personally think it is a lack of perspective. We are growing up at least here in this micro cultures that are And I see a majority of youth are growing in a very entitled world where many things become available to them at the push of a button. And they really do not understand the context with which anything comes from. And if only early on, we give them we start giving students a perspective of the world the perspective of real world challenges. So recently, I was invited to give a TEDx talk. And after the talk, one of the questions he asked me was on the similar range, right? If you were to change something about the educational system, what would you change? And what came to me and then what comes to me now is this. Who needs Humpty Dumpty? Who needs to learn Romeo and Juliet and eighth grade? Who needs to learn about Jack? And Joe? How does it really matter? What if we start off our life with a reality check? We are here for a short period of time, 70 years 80 years may look like a long period of time. But it's actually very short. You want to go through a whole lot of experience in your life. As you go through it, here are some things that are going to help. Because what you're doing now is teaching them totally irrelevant things and putting them out into the world and seeing guys survive. It's like an hunger game scenario, right? So let's not do that, let's prepare our students. Let's prepare our children for the real world. Let's tell them that our planet is dying. And we are responsible for a big chunk of it. Let's do what we can, right from the beginning. If we might not make all the difference in the world, but there is some difference we can make. Let's be kind to each other. Let's be nice to each other. That's easier than it seems. Even though everything else the news out there, the politicians out there might tell you otherwise, you believe there is a different world out there. A world of kindness, you can be nice to each other. You can be kind to yourself, you don't have to do to compare yourself to what is there in the media, you don't have to look at Teen Vogue, you don't have to look at fashion models and so on to determine your self worth. No, you are unique, you are beautiful. Let's start with that. We can put Humpty Dumpty as as fun thing to do in the player. We can read about Romeo and Juliet when we have time. But let's read about Man's Search for Meaning. Let's read. Let's read about the things that make us human. And I think that's how we start. 42:41 In the entire concept that you're talking about. I can actually find people in my life, few of my friends, my sister, a couple of my relatives who have been able to nurture their children so well, that children are not only doing well academically, professionally, but I think they are genuinely grounded individuals, where they've been able to embrace themselves as human beings and who they are. And they've been able to keep aside their accomplishments, their academic accomplishments on one side. What do you think is the role of parents in this entire journey, and what shifts are required to ensure that you are show your children in a direction where they can be proud of themselves in years to come? 43:39 I think a confused person cannot offer clarity to anyone. So the first rule as parents, is to have clarity ourselves. When we start as balanced from a place of being confused, but telling and kind of imagining in a way that we are going to guide our children and what we think is the right path. We are confusing them even more the blind lead the blind. So I think our first role as parents is to develop humility. And the first stage of that humility is knowing that we are simply caretakers, you know, it's coming from and I know you know this, God, flee, you can probably quote it for us. Children are not our children but their lives longing for itself. So to see that we do not exaggerate our own role in parenting. And to to keep an open mind. And open mind is knowing that because the child is helpless and completely looks up to you, doesn't mean you know everything, but you are a learner. The moment you become a parent, you have to start learning and the learning is not going to happen. By looking at other parents who are also blind and running around and trying to enroll them in 1000 different courses, but to learn how to recognize the individuality in each of your children, and not to be tied to hard considerations, that, you know, this is the path that is successful for the kid, any path can be successful for the kid, but more than the career paths they take, right from the beginning, is the human part that they are going to take. And how can we enable that. So to start with the humility, to have that learning mindset, right from the get go, and completely dedicate oneself, to grow and learn along with the child, as the child grows, they are going to bring in so much of their generation into your life. And if you say, I'm going to hold on to my generation of living and my generation of thinking, and I'm going to project on them, whatever my values were announcing, values are not important. We need to reinforce those values. That is why we are custodians there. But they're also not become so hardened on certain rules, that we do not recognize that the world that they are living in is going to be different from ours. To give that sense of kind of openness, open sensibility, I think is what we need to start over. This is not a comprehensive list, but definitely a good start. 46:22 You know, I think what you just mentioned about Khalil Gibran, I think the poem itself, puts it together really well when he said Your children are not your children. They are the sons and the daughters of their of life's longing for itself. They come through you, but not for you from you. And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love, but not your thoughts. 46:50 For they have their own thoughts. 46:54 You may house their bodies, but not their souls, for their souls, dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit not even in your dreams. You must strive to be like them. But seek not to make them like you. For life goes not backwards. Not that he is with yesterday, because your children are not your children. They are the sons and the daughters of life's longing for itself. Become through you, but not from you. And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you. Beautiful, Emanuel, I'm sure there is somewhere even you would have faltered to live from this space. 47:42 Oh, I falter every day, every minute. I have no qualms about believing for even for a second, that I am not struggling, or that I do not falter. As everybody does. I'm also on this journey of learning. And, and that journey is hopefully guided by a few fundamental rules, the fundamental rules for me that I have established over time, harmony, compassion, and a vindman where us our planet, and everybody that comes in and goes out of this space will thrive. So it is a journey of discovery. And for some reason I am here. I don't know why. I don't know who I am. I have no idea that I will ever discover that, who I am in this lifetime. But through the faltering I hope I will learn and grow a little bit more every single time. 48:45 And there are miles to go before we sleep. Thank you so much, Emmanuel, our pleasure. Interacting with you was such a pleasure. Listening to your views, listening to your experiences, just being in your presence. I think that itself is so blissful for me. Thank you. 49:07 I'm honored. Thank you