Sanjeev Mantri

00:01 Gaurav: Welcome ladies and gentlemen, You are listening to The xMonks Drive—a podcast bringing to you undiscovered executive stories to drive you. I'm your host Gaurav Arora. Playing sports is fun, but the field teaches you more than just athletic skills. And in many ways, a Sportsperson and CEOs play by the same rules. The rules of a game teach invaluable life lessons that apply similarly to Life and Leadership. With that let me bring to you another intriguing conversation with Sanjeev Mantri— who has over 3 decades of experience and is the executive director with ICICI lombard general insurance, let's hear Sanjeev From Playground to Boardroom. Thankyou so much Sanjeev, such a pleasure having you here. How have you been today? 00:10 Sanjeev: All good, and it's a real pleasure that we get a time to catch up with you. 00:15 Gaurav: Finally, you're here, it took me some time to have you onboard on this podcast. But as Sanjeev, I've always been an admirer of the kind of work that you do at ICICI Lombard, and apart from that, I think I've been an admirer for you because the kind of life that you have lived, the kind of stories that you have to share the kind of hobbies and interests that you've been able to nurture all these years. So, let's take a dive into your life, if you can share one of those few of those traits that you have picked up from your childhood, that you continue to cherish and leverage today as well. 01:00 Sanjeev: Yes, interestingly, when you think back in terms of where I got started, I must quickly add to where I come from, basically, my crucial years, which are the you know, critical period of your life, and you are far more impressionable than otherwise, got started in a very small town called Ujjain, which is in MP. That's where I live for almost 15 years, frankly, speaking, a very, very average but very satisfying upbringing in a middleclass family, we had the joy of small things which were taught, for us getting a new pair of slippers meant far more than fairly, what means to the new generation in terms of what we give them. Everything was on for everything was desired, and then achieve this certain act. So, there was a lot of, you know, a lot of my basic building blocks probably come from where I grew up, in which environment we grew up. A lot of credit goes to the family and part of it, you can't control you need your share of luck in life, to make that happen. So that's what in nutshell, has been my most impressionable years where I grew. If you talk about life lessons, in terms of what probably would I recollect, I think, one critical thing I realized, you know, we were far more aspirational, we're going up, going days that probably many others will be there was a hunger and that was a critical factor. I must also admit, as a matter of fact that I was mediocre in my academics, at least at that point of time, in my days of growing up, obsession was more driven by sports. And in hindsight, if I look at it, it has played a very critical role in my existence, because sports is an activity, you know, you lose every day, but you're not a loser, you kind of keep building up. And that has probably been a lot of life lessons, which I came up with, we have a whole episode on what is sports and in which way can it you know, build a person in terms of teamwork, in terms of acceptance of losses, and so on and so forth, there has been a very, very critical place. So, if you ask me, it would background the ecosystem the way in and, you know, the environment that I grew up, did a big role in making me what I am today. In that sense. 03:22 Gaurav: Thank you, thank you for this beautiful lesson that you've already shared with us. You said you lose on daily basis, and yet you are not a loser. And I'm sure all those audience who are listening to us right now, with those one of those strike offs, they tend to at least I have labelled myself as a loser. Just because I've lost something, it could be a loss of faith, it could be a loss of a contract, it could be losing, and not scoring good marks in a paper, and then I labelled myself a loser. So, you lose on daily basis and yet you're not a loser. Thank you so much Sanjeev for bringing that. So, we all have role models in our life. And since you're talking about the impressionable ages, we all get influenced in our lives. There are people who have impacted us beyond our imagination, who has influenced you the most in your life? 04:19 Sanjeev: It's a very interesting question in terms of who's influenced me the most. Clearly, You fall back on parents and then you fall back on parents. It's like, you know, asking parents, which is your favourite sandwich set of question to reply, and for me, it's equally difficult but in terms of someone whom I have admired what the growing up years, in particular, was very, it was I think, my mom. Amazingly, in many ways, I think she has had this huge balance that she created in life. I'll give you an anecdote project fast forward even our growing years and promotions meant a lot more in our life. I reached out to her once when I had a very good so called increment that stroke you know, carry your growth, one has to speak about that. At that moment, all I expected was celebration, jubilation in terms of what you have done. And in that moment that call and those little landline call days, right? There were no mobiles in there in those days, though, jab mera call gya, you know, she came back to city, you know, you mean a lot is good that you got what you wanted to, and I'm sure you deserved it, but we would still love you as much as we would, if you wouldn’t have got all this also. So, you should just stay where you are to this middle of the road approach. So, it's like this, you know, they keep talking about it, when things are really going good. It's unfair to think it's because a few other things are going very bad, which happens in every career, you know, intraday, there's so much of fluctuation for all of us. I mean, if you do submissions of life, God knows where all what all, we all must have faced, whether me or you Gaurav, we all have stories to speak about it. She added a sense of calmness, a sense of, you know, by giving a friend feedback in terms of what's to be appreciated, work not balanced a lot more. But that being said, I will not take away what my dad was because his ability to manage his professional life, he was a very successful, you know, corporate career person who's done pretty well and rose up the ranks in a very difficult manner and did well. So, there was that from there probably the ability to balance out whatever little I balance, I'm not the right person to answer. If you ask my wife, she'll definitely say no, no, he's short on 50 things. But that being put aside, where it is that the influence you had in my life. 06:35 Yeah, yeah. And I love the story that you shared about your mother, when in the middle of the road. She said, I love you as much as I'm always, and no accomplishments of yours are going to take away that love. And no challenges in your life are going to take away either, you know, reminds me of my conversation with my mother. She was making dahi. And this story I've shared on this podcast so many times she was making dahi and I came back home. And while she was making the dahi right? The process of making curd is you pour that warm water in that yeast, right? And you keep it after you keep it for some time. And during the entire process. She was saying Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru, Waheguru. And I said mom for this simple task, why are you bothering bhagwaanji (god) and she said so beautiful. She's said it so beautifully Gaurav like no point in time I want to live in this impression that ( the curd which is being made is being through me) and that is my way of expressing my shukrana. And that's the reason I carry this value of shukrana always with me, that whatever I'm doing, it's happening through me not because of me. 08:00 Sanjeev: well said very well said, absolutely, absolutely. 08:02 Gaurav: And that stayed with me. And as you are talking about the values that you've picked up from your father, I think parents play a very vital role in helping us become who we are. So, thank you for this beautiful reminder. What were those defining moments in your life that helped you reach where you have reached? Do what you do become who you are become? 08:34 Sanjeev: Well, I think, there are a few things which have happened, some driven by destiny, some driven in many ways the choices you make, but the big moment was as I said, have grown up in a small town called Ujjain and how did this movement of Ujjain to Mumbai happened you know that it should be called Bombay. Clearly my dad changed his job from Ujjain in Bombay. Like any other person, I was trying to be an aspiring cricketer in those days. And I was doing extremely well in the city called Ujjain and at that point of time, I felt that Mumbai will be a disaster because I can come up the ranks eventually went there and refused to leave Ujjain and come to Mumbai with my dad and at that point of time my dad also took a call that okay, you live there with mom and probably I'll do the transit up down whenever required, or we can just one and so forth. But in two months, he realized that he can't do while he can live without us. He can't live without mom. And so, he said, I'm taking him mom along and you take your call where you want to be. I was forced to move from a Ujjain to Mumbai, and a couple of things which happened which became eventually life lessons. So, my obsession was Cricket was impacting my academics in a very big way at that point of time, because it's not that I was bad, but I wasn't interested and clearly, if you're not interested, you will eventually start showing it in your results also in some way. or the other, you said that you need to make a choice in terms of what you want to be. And when we came to Mumbai, he took me to multiple grounds in all those visits to show as to what talent is, who are the people who are playing and where do I belong. And at that time, at that point of time, and I saw, I was like a frog in a well, right, I had no clue what the outside world was all about. I lost my conviction in terms of whether I can have a career in cricketing life, it was a very significant moment. And conviction is everything, what you believe in probably, eventually can happen, because kahin na kahin you will be all in and you will make it work. But that conviction went again, I could easily move towards more academically oriented, I would never say that. I would be calling myself a great student, but I was clearly, you know, moving in the direction that this what my chosen life will do this one event was very critical. But I had not much of a role to play. But I'm thankful that eventually Destiny propelled me and my I could, my mind could take the right call at the right time to make that a reality. The other one is a very interesting one in terms of what happened after 12th. You know, by the time academics were sorted, I was becoming you know, I was getting my decent push to the class, I got very good numbers. When I got very good marks in my 12th standard, apparently, I was told by my college, it was in chirmur swami vivekanand, the principal wanted me to stay back as one of the few so called students that we've got good people who can hang in and probably do what is required. I was pretty tough. You know, I made a very clear statement, why would I stay in a place like Swami Vivekanand and you know, I'm just moving on and my college of choices are podar and that's where I'll go and pursue my bcom and post that whatever I want to get myself educated in. Interestingly, when podar lists came in for admission, I was probably among the top 100 students, blah, blah, blah, all of that thing was there. My name was not in the admission list. And I was shocked. I said, it's obviously the judgment of error right? The people way below my marks got in and if you know that time by for easy, you get your marks, you get admission, there was no other attribution being done. And my name missing, I rushed, very, very arrogantly to the principal's cabin where I was not allowed to go in. And at that point of time, I told the guy the watchman was just outside that there is an error, and I need my admission to be confirmed. I was not allowed in when the principal I waited when the principal walked out. I told him, Sir, there's a judgment error because I have these marks, people will below me, even if 10% below me a got in, what have I done? Please correct it and get me my admission, because I've taken the TC, you know, from there and not apply anywhere, because I thought this is the only college I wanted to be and this is the place and that point of time he said, Listen, I have taken this year marks of 10th and 12th. And the average of it, that was never been done in Mumbai, ever. I said, What? Then I said I was CBSE. Can you give me the gracemarks? Because that time CBSE used to get extra 5% 10%? He said no, I've decided no gracemarks, marks are marks whichever board you are from. And my average fell down and I could not get admission. It was chaos. It was chaos. And the little bit of arrogance with which I said I will not work in Swamy since I had no other college left to join I was without admission. I was beyond any fault being freed all of the process was over, I was left without an admission. At that point of time, Gaurav. I had no choice, I went back to the principal at swami And it will give me an admission. I really don't have an admission and I got admitted there. And I was living life for me in a shell. As luck would have it. My folks knew I wasn't comfortable. He said let's apply for Sydenham, why would Sydenham take me which was typically that time the best college, I applied, in a month's time Sydenham had some cancellation and they gave me the admission. The interesting question is and this is what I wanted to put across to you that it's your destiny in terms of where I was supposed to go. So, I was not meant for podar. I moved to sydenham. And I had to again tell that principle that Listen, I need to leave Swami vivekanand again, which actually was the tougher part. So first, I'm going to declare I was an arrogant guy who was trying to say why will I stay, I go back to the same person. And I plead that please give me admission and I am left with no admission. Now here I am, again, leaving that place to go to sydenham, because my choice was how much ever harder it was to travel from chembur to Churchgate I want to be in Sydenham. But what I learned was and that is life and that lesson stayed, you don't need to burn your bridges, you need to keep a lot more equanimity in terms of your conduct in terms of your composure, because you don't know where life will take you. It's a very, very, it's a very quirky existence we have, we do give ourselves a lot of important, but that's not where the play comes in. When I went back, the stem of the principal I was my humble self, I will remain thankful all his life. I told him, it's embarrassing, but that's the reality, but I want to move on. And the magnanimity of that person rather than mine was that he very easily accepted that, yes, you should move on there, because that is the best quality and so on and so forth. So, the message God landed in my lesson was that life will take you wherever you want to, but you need to make sure that you let it flow in a manner which your conduct is not out of sorts, that was another and I think sydenham was a very, very defining moment. And that is where I say to everybody that the environment that you choose, change can make you better than what you are. Sydenham was full on exposure. It was a townside college, they have a lot of people with a lot of wealth, as well as all intelligence, you need to pick your people. But it was truly truly transformational. So, I mean, a couple of things in terms of what I'm able to narate about what had an impact and what changed me. 16:22 Gaurav: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for such a beautiful narration of what happened. And as I'm just reflecting, you said, that's a question that I have for you Gaurav. I would say there's no question for me, Sanjay, from where I look at life when people ask me, How have you been able to reach where you have reached? What are those defining moments? I personally believe, if there are two pillars, which have supported me, reach where have reached helped me become who I become, I will say the first one is grace. People call it luck. People call it destiny, I call it grace. It's sheer luck. It's sheer my good fortune that I'm born, the family that I'm born into. I'm friends with the people that I'm friends with. The education that I got, the people that I worked with, and on a day-to-day basis, the kinds of people that I get to speak to, for example, this opportunity to interact with you, Sanjeev, because I think it's if it's not destiny, I don't know what to call this. That's one. Second thing, I believe is what has worked for me in my life is genuine connections. I mean, I personally believe that once I make good connection with someone, I make sure that I should be of some service to the person and when I am saying services, the question that I ask myself, How can I be nice to work with? How can I leave the other person with a little bit of hope that he did not enter the conversation with and as I was listening to your, listening to you, I was reflecting, and you've already acknowledged the magnanimity of the principle. In the first go when he requested you, and when you deny it, he accepted that when you reached out to him again, he accepted that third time when you reached out to him, he accepted that. And he and I'm wondering, what a beautiful human being he would have been. Yeah, absolutely. Where he's willing to accept the so-called arrogance, the so-called surrender, the so called the growth, three different phases. You showed up, and he was willing to accept you. Absolutely. Wholly and completely what a beautiful magnanimity. 18:54 Sanjeev: And the beauty of these instances is, you know, what Gaurav is something which I remember, he wouldn't even recollect it, right? Because he's dealing with 1000s of students. It's a huge institution. But this is what influence is all about what stays with you. It's very personal. And it just stays, that's the way it works. 19:15 Gaurav: Yeah, you know, you said something so beautiful. You said that we should not be taking ourselves too seriously. You use the word that we should not give ourselves more importance. That's what you mentioned. Also, I remember Sanjeev in our last conversation, you mentioned that at times, most of us, all of us tend to undersell ourselves. So, my question is, what do you think, where does that come from? And what can be done instead? 19:42 I think very well said Gaurav, when I see this part of it. So, I'm aware of the fact that I mean, being in this job just primarily driven by numbers, CSS, font, and so forth. This communication of push and pull or targets and so on and so forth is a part of my exsistence, but the acknowledgement of it came to an instance which is why I'll reflect until you get this there is a challenge.  I'm rehabbing with a particular injury that I have at this point of time and I got a new coach for myself. His name is Vipul and a very interesting person who himself is a chartered accountant. But he's following his passion of being a physical trainer rather than following a profession like me, who are working in a more conventional manner in a company and doing a job clearly. So, when used to ask me as to put weights and you will see how was the weight? My answer used to be in English, which said that it is okay. You know, it is fine, maybe, maybe not. And he said, Why are you underselling yourself? That's very sad telling and actually get very annoyed for first few occasions, I really pushed him back saying why do you say underselling? You know, it's not fair? And that's what you just do you read you harden your own existence, your own beliefs. And you think that you're not understanding that I'm just giving you a reply for a question. He says no on a scale of 10, you need to start telling me whether it was 6-8-9, wherever you tell nine means it was really tough, six means it was relatively easy.  I want finite answers, because I can see the movement, I have enough observation power to know that you are very comfortable, but you want to not take the next level. And I then gave me this whole description for, you know, 10-15 minutes in terms of how I'm reacting. You're like a, you know, principal was trying to say, I don't want you to understand if the weight is like you say, increase yourself. Rather than, I insisting, because when I'm insisting you feel I'm pushing it on you, while you could actually from your own mind accept it. So, if you see our own existence of what we do in working life, we have a tendency to say that if I'm going to do X, I'll say no, x minus 20%, is what I can achieve. Because if I achieve X plus five point x minus 10, above 5%, on that I'm better off. So, this to me, got stuck. And I realized that a lot of times in life, we have a tendency to underplay because you don't want to put your neck up. Clearly, I can narate one small incidence to make my point. You know, I was doing a lot of half marathons in early part of my running days. And people started saying in next six to 12 months what next? We'll do a full marathon. I wasn't willing to commit. I said no, I will see in my mind. I was clearly you know, calculating, my heart wanted to do full marathon right naturally. I then made a self-declaration that if I do my half marathon under two hours, then I'll probably try for full otherwise I won't. It continued for two years. Nor could I give a shot or do my half between two months and then finally I said let me register for full. My first reaction for a stream of full was (I’ll register but will not tell anyone, I’ll say I am going for half marathon). So, this is another classic case of underselling it.  But frankly speaking, it's a stupid thing to do. Eventually, I realized that by declaring your plans of what you want to be, you make yourself physically and mentally far more acceptable. You align. Your ecosystem aligns your own mind with your heart aligns, and then you can achieve it. Eventually, in a rough conversation with someone in a party. I said, “Of course I am also doing full. I didn't tell you.”  I felt liberated. It’s like I've taken weight out of my chest in terms of disclosing it. This is what I want to do.  And the next half, which was a preparation to full, I did under two, probably after that I've done so many of them under two. So, what probably I mean to say, this is underselling business that (I will do like this. I will do it like that). After that I have decided that I want to put across my plans to as many as possible, because it's only fair and there's no shame in not achieving what you're spoken about. But the fact is that alignment is complete. This probably is one of the critical things which I wanted to share. 23:59 Gaurav: Yeah, thank you so much. And since then, you have done so many full marathons as well not only in India, but globally. As per my understanding, you have completed 15 full marathons, including Boston Marathon as well. Is my understanding right? 24:15 Sanjeev: Yeah, I have done that. I've done that. Yes, you're right. You're right. Absolutely. What started with the hobby has become a part of my life. 24:23 Gaurav: so help me decide let's double click on that. Why is it important for people who are working in the corporate world or people who have done their own businesses, people who are entrepreneurs and start-ups right, why is it important for all of us to have hobbies and interest apart from outside our work? 24:423 Sanjeev: I think a very, very fair question and I Gaurav I can, you know, probably tell you, anybody have anybody, each one of us existing in whichever life cannot be 24/7 thinking of same things all the time. I firmly believe that any point of time each one of us, We'll have in multiple sections success and failure, it can be in your personal life where you're actually going to the worst times, while typically a corporate times you're going to your highest. You know, in my early days in my college when I was working with a computer company, as a sales promoter for them, I remember a person was given a ticket to go to USA if you don't go and do the big thing in the 90s to go to USA for a day for an exceptional performance. And the same time after one hour, you got a warning letter. In terms of low performance, I said How does this work in life? How can you have a ticket to US he said this was for the sale that I did three months back and post that my numbers have dropped. So, this is for the recent one. So, your success what was coming with a lag by the failure of last three months came immediately on a table in terms of things of warning. To me, as a student, see, I will look still living my college life, it was a big perplexing situation that how can an organization give both of them on the same day, it was pure coincidence, but that is the way you know, things come out. So, coming back to my running piece in terms of what you know, got me into it is pure random luck, because the environment change and marathons became a big thing and I got sucked into it. From there on. It actually became an identity. Believe me when I had to skip one or two introductions, even for my working life used to be saying the way you said someone's very marathon I had a dream and I told about that at the start that I want you to be known more as a spokesperson than a working life person right. So, there was a clear element of it. And hardly not in my mind, I started enjoying it, I thought I'm getting acknowledged for what I was typically born with.  And in terms of my own passion, clearly, also connected to this is I love bucketing in my life. You know, I don't want it all combined in submission. So, I don't want spill overs of my working life into personal, personal into sports. And the moment to keep bucketing them and leave it in isolation. So that many times I've said that the best part of my life is you know, 5:30 in the morning, when I go for running on my tennis, and finishing it by probably 7 o'clock and from there on, I'm willing and waiting for the next morning to come in.  But waiting for the next morning, you end up giving a lot more because you know there's something exciting waiting. And it's not about running, it's not about tennis, it's about what you like. If you like singing, start getting into that. There's so many people you will meet will say I used to sing but I stopped singing so many will says to dance, but I stopped dancing. My own brother right he was a very good player better player than me. But he stopped all of that in terms of doing it. If you are not able to pursue this. Current life has become a lot more stressful. Bucketing is the way forward Gaurav. And as much you know, there has been spill overs Let's be honest there are spill overs. We all are human, but you are able to pick up the good parts, you know, you get in trouble with friends but you have something else, you just come your way. You pick up the good part, let the bad ones pass over. And we know that you know this shall pass recuperating from the injuries that you get getting back all of it becomes part of the mix. And you end up living a relatively more healthier existence than what will happen if you've not bucketed your life is what I feel. 28:25 Gaurav: This is so beautiful. You know, yesterday only I was talking to a very senior C suite executive and he happens to work in a technology company and he was talking about something called portfolio life. And what you're talking about the bucketed, it's absolutely on the same lines that you know why it's really important to have a portfolio of work that you're involved in. Sanjeev you also spoke about identity. And that's something that I would like to double click on as we move on. But before that. I remember during the last conversation, you mentioned a beautiful term. You said victims of their own intelligence, where you mentioned that at times we become our own biggest enemies. Tell me more about that when you're using the term victims of their own intelligence, how does that impact first What is that? And how does that impact an organization and the people working with you? 29:28 Sanjeev: So, I’ll give you an interesting anecdote to make my point, so I have multiple examples on that. But you know, so there was a person who came for his internship from IIM Ahmedabad and worked with us and you know, I was part of the interview team and I selected him I really liked the guy in terms of what he could bring to the table. I found it extremely sharp, well aware of you know, what he can do so in the internship he had a great time and he said I want my final placement with you guys itself, and I will come and join your department. But clearly, I was very enthused, and I said, Wow! Internship, you know, is only a couple of months off. But if you're able to pick it up, we were more than happy to give him a pre placement offer. And quite rightly so he came in join. And very interestingly, when he started working with us. Naturally, there was a lot of attention also being given because of the pedigree as well as the ability to make a difference in the department. You know, our play is all about having good people making good things work. A month from now he came very harassed and said, I need a personal time and guidance from you. I said, why not, Fair enough Let's have a discussion. He was very perturbed. He said that listen, I mean, where is my career going? I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not sure I said, What's troubling you just work for a month or more and is nothing to be concerned, you already spent some time you're on track. But he said, listen, there is there is some gap in terms of where it is he wasn't opening up. I said, Okay, let's do one thing, give yourself a month from now, or maybe a couple of weeks, and then we meet again, because you seemed a lot more troubled. When it came again, in a couple of month time. He made a very interesting place it see my friends, if someone's in foreign bank, someone's been here for training, and here I'm doing this stuff. I'm not convinced that my career was in the right direction. So, I had a very interesting take on him. He was a person who knew too much too soon, probably was evaluating his career on daily basis if you live daily, but you finally see some mission in cohorts that we'll look at it. I mean, when I speaking about it, you know, I talk about my life in the gym, my life in Mumbai, and then probably you know how I moved to Sydenham. So, you don't you look back, but you don't assess it. So, I said you need to be patient. And if you're looking back and seeing what others are doing, frankly speaking, there will be some of them will be working in the investment banking of New York in the best of the best investment bank, some will be doing this. It's your personal call of what works with you. I have realized that too much of intelligence, at times can be inhibiting factor, you need to carry it lightly, you need to your ability to relate to people at large can get compromised. I've got another few examples in terms of saying so it is an asset, which needs to be really cherished, invested in that you maintain that I'm not even for a second saying that please don't use it. But make that as a top of your recall, in terms of what's required making yourself brash, and your inability to consume every see listen, I mean, if you're part of a 2% top cohort or 1% for that matter, you are a blessed soul, but the bulk of it would be still lying in those years is a normal distribution that comes into play will line the 90% cohort. And that is what you need to relate to, that is what you need to work on. A classic example I always keep saying is you know, you got to invest yourself to be I mean, Tendulkar did not become Tendulkar because he was talented. You're still putting in 10 hours of work ethics every day. I mean kambli and Tendulkar were both on similar track one was more talented, I think kambli was more talented, but you had a tendulkar, who probably made a name and fame for himself eventually, right? So, there is there is a play that is required. You are natural with some things you should harness it. But I've seen multiple times, this becomes a restrictive factor. And that in any team exercise in that in terms of growing personally can become restrictive, so value it, but don't get obsessed with it. And don't throw it around because the world at large doesn't care. 33:38 Gaurav: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a beautiful book that I read a long time back, it says talent is overrated. Yeah. And as I'm just listening to you another word, which is talking to me is consistency. And then as you mentioned that you cannot continue to re-evaluate how well are you progressing on day-to-day basis, you live on daily basis. You know, Steve Jobs said, you cannot connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. So, I'm sure he had some reason why he said what he said, Sanjeev let's shift the gears. One of my deep interest is to understand the challenges people experience on a day-to-day basis, especially leaders at C suite level. So, my question to you is what are the top three challenges that you face in your day-to-day life and how do you ensure that you stay relevant and deal with them? 34:39 Well, very, very fair point that clearly the generation that we belong to, in our 50s We grew without mobile we grew without social media. I am just coming out of a presentation with the centre or was 45% of the aspect now on the digital side. It's been a transformational existence. I think we've seen the transitions You know many ways you've been, you know, fortunate to see the transition. I mean, we all can’t recollect how you used to land at an airport and call our driver, we got this so much of country and you I lost my mobile in Delhi and I didn't know how do I come back to Mumbai and we connect and do what is required and which we are doing it in a very, very clear mature, you get used to the good things and they are like drugs, you get addicted to it being relevant is one of the top most things you know, that hits my mind, in terms of the top of the chart recall, clearly got up and I have seen what time you need to work hard. And look at any profession for that matter. If you meet a doctor will say that for the rest of his life, he keeps reading because medicine keeps changing, right? There is there is no way what he was taught and what is relevant. And the top was doctors are the ones who are right now. Well, in the 60s and 70s, you know, doing the most delicate and intricate, you know, procedures and you know, curing there, they got the hand of God in many ways to heal people. So, my point is that, that's what's true for even professionals like us, people who are in working life, the investment to self. So, we work for a brand like I'm, I'm blessed to be supported by a brand which is far bigger than people like me and can survive without people like me. So, my own belief is in our C suite existence, which you're talking about, if at all, there is a term like this, I have my own views on these things. But that being said, we need to make sure that we draw benefit of it. And I believe that clearly, this brand has invested a lot more in me to make me look good than what I could have contributed to make it look better, right. So, we're doing our bits and pieces. But clearly, we are blessed to have it. You know, if you take the brand away from where I work, I don't even know how many LinkedIn followers I will have, I don't know how many friends I'll have there is there is of course, some bit of a belief that certain cross section of people will be there. But that's again, my presumption still to be tested. With time, I do believe there'll be a substantial fall on all of this. So, substance will form has to be understood. And if that is what is required. You keep investing in because that's what has given you a life if you me are talking you're talking because I'm doing something and I ran into you, it's the brand that got me connected to it's not Sanjeev monthly percentage got connected to that confusion at times of conflicting answers with the bank is one thing which is avoidable, because it is transitionary everything does have a timeframe. And clearly, in that light, that kind of existence becomes a very important piece. And also, one more thing, which is there, which I liked is that your ablility to relate I think team plays a significant role. So, I've learned in any sports game, right in terms of where what it is some will get acknowledged a lot more and then a striker gets acknowledged a lot more than a defender. It's part of the process. So, your ability to understand which part of the role you are in and conquering it. So, mera toh ek most favourite saying (that I do when I meet paanwala) who's becoming famous you go to muchu paanwaala in Mumbai and everybody wants to go there and eat that paan (he must have done something different Gaurav and you don’t go and ask him how much have you studied). It's irrelevant, right? It is like an obsessive. So even if I meet a player who's played at a state level, or even at a district level for the better, I am obsessively looking at him for that piece of art. So, our same thing is so called Leadership job that we're doing our ability to dive very obsessively in that to make it work becomes a very critical aspect because we need to pick up the skills you know, as a kid, I used to do all those events in my colony that has to live it. Frankly, I wasn't going to do anything but still I was driving team because I have so many smart people who are willing to come along and gel together to make that work. (My contribution was minimalistic) but I knew that if to get them together and make it work will probably be the best contribution I can do. It's those pieces of normalization which become very critical for survival. 39:29 Gaurav: So, first thing that I'm listening is staying relevant. How do you ensure that you continue to learn and that's the reason why doctors and lawyers they are known as practicing doctors, practicing lawyer, practicing chartered accountant. Okay, and the second thing that you mentioned about is managing your team members and rallying people together so that the normalized results would be more than what individually you can drive is my understanding, right? 39:55 Sanjeev Absolutely, absolutely. You're absolutely spot on spot on. That's the way Yeah. Okay. 40:01 Gaurav: Thank you, Sanjeev. Sanjeev all my conversations with you have left me with profound reflections. In fact, you're one of those very few people that I've come across who have challenged the acceptable norms of leadership. And I'll tell you why. In all my interactions with senior leaders in the corporate scenario, people talk about leaving a legacy. I remember a few years back, I heard Oprah talking about that I don't want to leave a legacy, I don't believe in the concept of legacy. And during one of our conversation you accentuated on the same lines, where you spoke about that you don't believe in leaving a legacy? In fact, in your words, you mentioned I'm not impressed with the word legacy. What's behind that? And what could be another perspective that I might be missing out on? 41:07 Sanjeev: No, I'm sure. I don't think you're missing out anything, you know, I have a much broader view. It's not that we have not grownup finding people who are left legacy and tremendous respect for what they've done. They have seen leaders right behind on the street, I can see Obama, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, there is so much that is created. So, I am no one to be, you know, saying that it's not relevant from a leadership perspective. But that being said, I have my own take, and I probably give you an explanation to make my belief in terms of what I'm trying to communicate. And I'll use an article in which Rahul Dravid had written probably in the 90s when he was still playing for India, that he had a chance to go to a you know, under-19 camp in Bangalore, the Academy which was there at that point of time also. So, he saw the under-19 people playing you know, and practicing that he felt that each of the players with a bunch of 30 players getting trained over there were far better than what he was in that particular age, they were like completely, you know, rock stars and he said that was each of them can become a Rahul Dravid or maybe even way beyond from the talent that they possess. So, but in that article also he went on to write and that's where mighty came there out of these 30 people all who are practicing and who got to interact with him probably one or two will play for the country or maybe even not that another five seven will play for the state level another few will play for the district and so on and so forth. They will do what is required but they will all move out of the life but will you call the guy who played only for the country successful on the other 28-29 some will run successful business, some will have successful corporate life all of that will come into play what does success mean right? So who so it's easy to make your own judgment and get obsessed with it in terms of saying the guy who played for country or the rock star because they will be known, they will be acknowledged and some will play one somewhere play 100 tests when you can you can still Google out there so many of them were played less than 10 game for the country and then they will play but they played for the country all the all unsuccessful my one thing is that yes you need to convert your habit your strengths into art, like paan wala example right? He converted, he was making Paan he wasn't good one day but he kept investing you keep hearing stories of auto drivers to keep newspapers keep music systems they keep they attract customers. So, what they've done is they have become so driven that they've gone on to excel I think that's a relevant piece. Circumstances can make me leave legacy circumstances can even make you not leave leagcy right? There is a rule that comes in but you go all in and you do what is required, not obsessively driven and this obsession with legacy at times and I was part of lending to SME entrepreneurs and I was purely doing lending to SME entrepreneurs the best time India has gone through as a phase you know India shining phase of 2003 to 2007 before the global financial crisis happened this obsession to get acknowledged obsessions to make this in attempt to make over the top and you meet and look it may work it may not work for all right I can only leave lead anybody's life in Marathon has taught me this right if I'm my body's able to run that distance of Marathon in life not being a sprint, but a marathon. It's hard to copy others it's hard to get driven to seek because if you can do a full marathon in three and a half hours, probably I may have injuries, the process rather than the outcome, the journey rather than the destination can be far more defining and that is where it's important. And it's not for me to judge Whether it's legacy or what, it is what it is. 45:04 Gaurav: Thank you, Thank you so much for bringing that aspect. In fact, the natural progression and the next question for me is going to loop in when you use the word identity. And then you use the sentence when you said that at times, we tend to take ourselves more important. You also spoke about that the brand that we represent, is much bigger than who we are. On the contrary, in today's corporate world, Sanjeev, you'll find that people tend to take themselves too seriously and more important than they actually are. And because of which, what happens is when they take themselves too seriously, they distance themselves from the reality. What's happening at the grassroot level, at the ground level, how do you ensure that you stay grounded, both literally and metaphorically, because in all my conversations with you, I've never smelled an arrogance, any kind of air puts your 46:15 Sanjeev: I think you're being kind. And frankly, speaking, this is one part is hard for me to judge personally. And if you're saying it, I would accept it with all humbleness. But it's a lot to do with upbringing. Probably life at a level you have in terms of many things. I can tell you, all of us, and it's a big one, which I believe in, we have been very lucky, because life has given it not even second chance, third chance, fourth chance, and then we have been able to make it look at the ambition piece, which I spoke about it right not getting into podar, getting back to Swami and then probably to Sydenham. Clearly, it was all about getting multiple chances. So, there was an there was a moving mass, of course, the decision had to be taken. And somewhere I said let's go and be Sydenham I wasn't daunted initially, the reality of life is yes, I've always wanted that to be in a town-side college where, you know, you heard stories about what all leads to, but I've realised, whichever environment you go in, you do fine. And you do manage to get likeminded people. And you can probably, you know, live through it in whichever way it is. I remember meeting my friends and Sydenham and I was trying to overvalue prove to them that I belong to where truly actually didn't belong. And I went out for a lunch with them from college. And I realized that what this went over lunch is something which I've only spent over next two to three months, you had to retract there are. And it was not about the fact that I couldn’t afford it. That was not the that was the least of memory. It's about how do I get people who are like me, and you find it and they're equally there. Your time can come if you hang in. So, there is there is a play that comes in. And it's a lot to do with the ecosystem, which you are part of, which keeps you where you belong. And sports, I think has made me realize that you cannot win every game and every shot that you hit will not go where it's supposed to be. And there will be days when you will hit everything which will go and touch the line. And there'll be days when you will not. So as a person, I'm not the one who can believe it. But good days, if you can make it count more than the bad days, you will probably get sorted eventually. 48:35 Gaurav: Beautiful, what a beautiful learning. You know, as I'm just listening to you, I'm going back to the statement that you made that I might lose on day one and day two, and yet I'm not a loser. Similarly, I might win today and tomorrow. And yet I'm not a winner. I am because I exist and that itself is a blessing. The question is, am I willing to count the blessings more than the days where I'm not really happy. So, you've just taken one step forward. The background that you come from, I'm sure you would have some myths that would have broken once you started to walk this path right now. A senior executive with one of the biggest organizations in the country today, having walked this path, what do you think? What are the myths that people tend to carry? And are absolutely not true at your level? 49:29 Sanjeev: I think in a way I've covered that, but I'll probably reiterate that circumstances can make you look much better than what you are. And they also can come out to where it can make you look much worse than what you are. So frankly speaking, it's important to look at every existence in I know in a contextual manner, and let it roll. I do believe in living the moment I do believe in enjoying what has come by me. There is no way I would say that I am not the monk who sold his Ferrari, actually, I wouldn't mind. All of that is pretty much intact. But you have to look in context. I mean, I don't know how successful or you know how out of sorts I've been in my own existence. But clearly, I do believe that, again, it's a lot to do with how you have come up in life, I'm able to see the good part of my existence in terms of how blessed life that we've had, and to that extent, to stay where it is. But it's, you need to know that you need to let it pass. And you know, very good believe that everyone gets a golden lap in life. And that golden lap, most of us don't even realize that we are going through golden lap, and it does, it does pass on credit. In the end, it's not a perpetual device. So that acknowledgement of the Golden lap, which you're running to where everything what you touch eventually becomes gold and when that run gets over, you feel that everything is becoming mud. It's something which is you need to adjust to and you live with, it's like an aging body, right? What I can do is 20 years post-person, all I want to do in my 50s. So, but I haven't taken away the enjoyment that comes out of that. Probably i could play seven days a week, but now I play three days a week, but since it is becoming less, I've started enjoying more, it was very high, but it wasn't there. So, there is a very, very clear acknowledgement of existence. 51:35 Gaurav: Thank you so much. Thank you so much Sanjeev for an absolute insightful conversation, this the last question. Having lived the life that you have lived, what do you know for sure, with 100% certainty? 51:58 Sanjeev: Good one, I think, clearly 100% certain that in the long run, we all are dead. There is no confusion, there is a finality to our existence. And that has to be acknowledged and accepted. So clearly, you must do what you believe in. And I have spoken about multiple instances of how obsessively I'm involved with my own existence. Clearly, if you ask me. I also believe that when I say the word obsessive, I want to use it in a very moderate man to say that I do believe we need to take care of ourselves if we do take care of others, there is there is a process that is involved in that and on a 100% certainty that reality is there having been having taken a birth and a life to lead that is there for a time, there will be a finality and in that intervening period, try to do what you can. 53:01 Gaurav: Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, that is that's for sure that one day we all are going to leave this world. And what we do today is what we would have so thank you so much Sanjeev, for your time, for your wisdom for sharing your experiences and all the lovely stories that you have to share. Thank you so much. And you have a wonderful day ahead. Take care. 53:23 Sanjeev: Absolute pleasure connecting with you, Gaurav, and, clearly, you've taken me back in time and that's always a pleasure. So, thank you so much for this endearing discussion. Thank you so much. 53:34 Gaurav: Thank you. Here is a part where I am always short of words. When it comes to recap learnings from the episode. But what is definitely going to change for me are two terms—-Loser and Legacy. You lose on daily basis, and yet you are not a loser.And another is, What it truly means to leave a legacy—the one thing most of us obsess over. Thank You for listening. And And And… we are so close to 100 episodes. Thank you for staying with me on this journey. Before you go, would love to read what has been your favourite episode, speaker or moment. Write to me at gauravinspires@gmail.com. Till then, stay blessed, stay curious and stay tuned and i look forward to meeting you next week with another interesting conversation. Thank You ! Snippets—- Title 1–-Are You Underselling Yourself? I then made a self-declaration that if I do my half marathon under two hours, then I'll probably try for full otherwise I won't. It continued for two years. Nor could I give a shot or do my half between two months and then finally I said let me register for full. My first reaction for a stream of full was my register Coronavirus, EcoBlue money. So we will have a half Koran. So this is another classic case of underselling it.  But frankly speaking, it's a stupid thing to do. Eventually, I realized that by declaring your plans of what you want to be, you make yourself physically and mentally far more acceptable. You align. Your ecosystem aligns your own mind with your heart aligns, and then you can achieve it. Eventually, in a rough conversation with someone in a party. I said, “Of course I am also doing full. I didn't tell you.”  I felt liberated. It’s like I've taken weight out of my chest in terms of disclosing it. This is what I want to do.  And the next half, which was a preparation to full, I did under two, probably after that I've done so many of them under two. So what probably I mean to say, this is underselling business that (I will do like this. I will do it like that. After that I have decided that I want to put across my plans to as many as possible, because it's only fair and there's no shame in not achieving what you're spoken about. But the fact is that alignment is complete. This probably is one of the critical things which I wanted to share Title 2—- Move From Stressful To A Healthier Existence And in terms of my own passion, clearly, also connected to this is I love bucketing in my life. You know, I don't want it all combined in submission. So I don't want spillovers of my working life into personal, personal into sports. And the moment to keep bucketing them and leave it in isolation. So that many times I've said that the best part of my life is you know, wake up 5:30 in the morning, when I go from running on my tennis, and finishing it by probably 7 o'clock and from there on, I'm willing and waiting for the next morning to come in.  But waiting for the next morning, you end up giving a lot more because you know there's something exciting waiting. And it's not about running, it's not about tennis, it's about what you like. If you like singing, start getting into that. There's so many people you will meet will say I used to sing but I stopped singing so many will says to dance, but I stopped dancing. My own brother, right he was a very good player better player than me. But he stopped all of that in terms of doing it. If you are not able to pursue this. Current life has become a lot more stressful. Bucketing is the way forward. And as much you know, there has been over le Let's be honest there are spillovers. We all are human, but you are able to pick up the good parts, you know, you get in trouble with friends but you have something else, you just come here with you, You pick up the good part, let the bad ones pass over. And we know that you know this shall pass recuperating from the injuries that you get getting back all of it becomes part of the mix. And you end up living a relatively more healthier existence than what will happen if you've not bucketed your life is what I feel. Title 3— How To Stay Relevant Right? One of my deep interests is to understand the challenges people experience on a day to day basis, especially leaders at C suite level. So my question to you is what are the top three challenges that you face in your day to day life and help ensure that you stay relevant and deal with them? Well, 34:39 my article very, very, very fair point that clearly the generation that we belong to, will not 50s We grew without Global Review. Without social media.  We are just coming out of a presentation with the center or was 45% of the aspect now on the digital side. It's been a transformational existence. I think we've seen the transitions You know many ways you've been, you know, fortunate to see the transition. I mean, we all can recollect how you used to land at an airport and call our driver.  we got this so much of country and you I lost my mobile in Delhi and I didn't know how do I come back to Mumbai and we connect and do what is required and which We are doing it in a very, very clear mature, you get used to the good things and they are like drugs, you get addicted to it being relevant is one of the top most things you know, that hits my mind, in terms of the top of the chart recall, clearly got up and I have seen what time you need to work hard. And look at any profession for that matter. If you meet a doctor will say that for the rest of his life, he gives you because medicine keeps changing, right there is there is no way what he was taught and what is relevant. And the top was doctors are the ones who are right now. Well, in the 60s and 70s, you know, doing the most delicate and intricate, you know, procedures and you know, curing there, they got the hand of God in many ways to heal people. So my point is that that's what's true for even professionals like us, people who are in working life, the investment to self. So we work for a brand like I'm, I'm blessed to be supported by a brand which is far bigger than people like me and can survive without people like me. So my own belief is in our C suite existence, which you're talking about, if at all, there is a term like this, I have my own views on these things. But that being said, we need to make sure that we draw benefit off of it.