Brett Hill

Intro:// At times, your deepest wounds become the source of your life’s purpose… the crack shines the light from your deepest wounds come your purpose How do you handle equanimity and the discordance in your life? In today’s episode we are going to explore the practical applicability of mindfulness for a Coach and a leader and I am sure you are going to love that. Without wasting much of your time, ladies and gentleman, let me welcome Brett Hill and let’s get straight into a conversation with the teacher, coach and the master… Outro:// I just loved this conversation…and had great insights. In fact, I am leaving with more questions to ponder on…Few questions for me to ponder on are: How do you consciously on purpose intelligently create connection? How to create an organization where people can be people, and not just job functions? What’s your key take away from this episode? I would love to hear your reflections, insights and learnings. Do leave a review and rate this podcast and I look forward to meeting you again next week with yet another interesting conversation. Till then, take care and stay blessed… 00:03 Thank you so much, Brett, such a pleasure having you here on the podcast. Thank you for inviting me. It's great to be here. Pleasure. 00:13 So But how was the conference? How did that go for the future is mindful, the future is mindfully The time is now. 00:23 It was great. Oh, my gosh, we had such a great time we, we had some fabulous speakers and the panels and the participation and the people who showed up, they were just kind of going, Oh, this is such a great experience for them. We used a platform that let people kind of socialize. And we just got great feedback around that. And so we left, we retired after the end of two days, of course, but it was just an amazing experience, all in all, so we were very, very happy with the outcome. I'm sure when people come together the kind of energy that gets generated in a conference, and especially when you're talking about something which is as soulful as mindfulness. I'm sure it's a community coming together. It's a tribe coming together and creating a new future for each other. Yeah, what could be more powerful, you know, we're, we're social beings. And in these days, in particular, were kind of missing this connection. And even though it was virtual, there was still this palpable sense of connection, 01:29 and possibility. And so you put connection and possibility into the same room and you have all you're missing is a bonfire and the beach and the waves and you've got, you know, you got a party happening, right. It's really fun. Yeah, yeah. Thank you, thank you so much for sharing it. It reminds me of those times when we used to organize in person conferences, and the last three years we have been organizing 01:54 online version of the same conference at the same time, one thing is common, the comradery, the bond, the warmth that people bring in, irrespective of where they are. 02:07 So just when you say that I just feel myself warming and get feeling really heartfelt about it. Yeah, I feel that. Thank you. 02:15 But just curious, how was your upbringing impacted you to become the person that you are today? Every conversation, I find you really warm? Open? 02:28 Exploring, trusting your intuition. So? 02:34 Well, that's, uh, whoa, whoa, that's kind of a big question. I've had a very, you know, obviously, I'm, I'm not, you know, at the beginning of my career and of my life, so to speak, if you think of your life as a career of like, how do I be a human right, and, and I've explored a lot, but one of the things it's just kind of, I believe in what we call inherent qualities that different did it the way I think about it, is that we're human beings are like, different instruments in the orchestra. They all sound different. And we all are played different. But we all are musical, right? And so we have this musical framework in a way and I don't mean music, I mean, musical, metaphorically, right? We're all humans this case, right? So we all have this human 03:24 capacity, but we're all different, yet we all have this same sort of function and way in the sense, when we play together, magnificent things can happen. And so I've took very seriously very, very seriously what kind of an instrument am I? How do I play my humaneness? How do I, how does this thing work right, when I, when I think this way these things happen when I act this way these things happen. So I explored very deeply and very sincerely 03:55 pushing the bed the edges of what what is, what does it mean to to meditate? What does it mean to explore the boundaries of human physical capacity? What does it mean to 04:11 open was it mean to be present? How far does this go? And I went, as far as I know, how and what I found was the limits to what is possible is only bounded by what you will allow. 04:28 Now there are some physical boundaries, right? I mean, I can't throw myself into you know, that 04:35 the ocean in the middle of the ocean and expect to survive, but 04:41 but in terms of who what is my experience now, if I just 04:47 let myself have my experience male? 04:52 That that is a very, very rich moment. exploration. 05:00 greatest wish is that everyone has great moments beginning with the one you're having right now. 05:07 So what I'm listening is, but you have always been an explorer, you've always had the curiosity that you bring in. That even opens up a new world for you. Yeah, even as a child, I was always taking apart my toys. I'm sure. I wanted to know how does this thing work? I hear this little like a little Reagan toy or something like I hear this thing whirling how I want to see it whirling ticket. I tell a story about when I was a young boy, we had a giant grandfather clock was very tall. And it's big old time pendulum and mechanical Chinese bone dong, dong, dong. And, and what I decided to take it apart. 05:53 Well, I successfully took it apart. And and that was the last day the clock work. And you could not put it together. Right? Because I, I learned that taking things apart and putting these together are two different skills. Yeah. But the point is, I was just really curious. I wanted to see how it work. And I've always been that way. And so it's really no, it turned out to be no different. When I started taking, as I grew up, grew older, I started getting really curious about the mechanics of consciousness and perception, and interpersonal relationships, and specifically communications. How do we communicate? How do we communicate? How do we mean something to each other? How do we communicate that? How do we communicate intent value opposition expression? 06:45 You know, connection, contribution connection. Yeah. How do you create consciously on purpose intelligently create connection? That's something I've been exploring for many, many years. Yeah. In fact, the last year, we did, we organized a conference, and the theme was a journey into Shunya, and expansion. And the three sub themes were expression, connection and contribution. So when you were talking about communication, and connection, I could really relate with that. But just curious how and when did you get introduced to the concept of mindfulness? 07:22 Well, I became a teacher, a meditation teacher in my late 20s, actually, but it wasn't framed as mindfulness. So I was teaching kriya yoga, and some other things because I got introduced some teachers from Yogananda school. Wow. And so I was a kriya, teacher and all that stuff, back in the day. And then I went on from there to explore some other spiritual paths. And I wound up 07:54 learning 07:56 as a student in as somatic psychology. And in that, one of the tenants of that was mindfulness. This was back in like the late 80s, sexual way before mindfulness was a big thing. And, and I was entered in and the guy who was teaching it, his name was Ron Kurtz, and the school was called the hakomi Ha, k. O M, I can't call me the, you know, he's passed now. But it was a very early form of somatic psychotherapy. And brilliant, just absolutely brilliant in its implementation. And so ahead of its time, I just had stumbled by luck, the fact that I happen to live in a town where this was being offered in Boulder, Colorado, and, and I went to a therapist who use some of these techniques, because I was I had had this emotional heart break that was just wrecked my world. And I was just, I was a train wreck, and I didn't know what to do. And I lost my job. I was I was nonfunctional over this breakup, which came out of the blue, and I was crazy about the scope. And 09:02 I finally woke up one day said, I gotta get some professional. Yeah. And I saw I stumbled into this guy's office, and he was using these techniques. He was 40. Well, well, if your hand could talk, he's noticed my hand was making a fist as I was speaking, he's going what's going on with your hand? You're making a fist, and I'm going, What are you talking about? I wasn't consciously aware that that was going on. But my body knew what he was doing. Yeah. Your body was communicating with you. Yes. And he noticed, right. And so rather than just listening to my story, and then the and then the and then they said, what's going on with your hand? That's the somatic, right? Paying attention to the physical manifestation, expression of subconscious, subconsciously, my body is communicating something so he's so we explore that. So what's going on? So he says, Well, just pay attention to your hand and open and close it really slowly and carefully and mindfully paying attention. 10:00 into this. So this is kind of my first night had all this meditation training. So introduction to somatic. Yeah, so he's like, oh, so I'm opening and closing my hand, what's going he's just not your hand could speak. What would it be saying? 10:14 Oh, beautiful question, really, I'm really angry about this. 10:19 Oh my god, it opened up a whole world that I wasn't consciously my head conscious, but my heart knew. 10:28 And my hand was connected more to my heart than my head. You so by consciously paying attention to the physical manifestations, you can get to what they call exploring the contents of the subconscious. And so this led to a whole big load of stuff that I was holding on to from my past that had nothing to do with this breakup was just piling on it was just attached to it. It was like, that's why I was so overwrought, my whole world was blowing up, because there was all this energy that was just waiting for an opportunity. And here the doors open a little bit, you know, how when you you, you pierce a balloon full of water, the whole thing? Blows, right? Yeah. It's like, there's the puncture. There's the breakup. But then it's like, Wow, where did all this energy come from all this. So we, I, I really, really got in touch with a lot of very healing. 11:19 Before that, you were just holding on to that. And it was just saying there. Yeah. And as they say, from the crack shines the light from your deepest wounds come your purpose. Absolutely. That's so beautiful. And it's so true, right? And so I asked him, I said, What was that that you did? How did you know to do that? He says, Oh, it's this thing called a Comey. They teach it here. And I said, I have to know everything there is to know about that. Right? So and we and I started studying it. And part of that, to get back to your question, two hours ago was mindfulness. Yeah, the therapist must be in a very mindful place. And very, very highly attuned to their experience of their client. 12:08 And they invite the client to be mindfully aware of their experience. And so I learned this very high degree of interaction, 12:18 mindful awareness, interpersonal connection. And then later, I felt like, this doesn't have to be in therapy, this could be just walking around in the world. Yeah. I'm trying to teach you all the same skills. In fact, I would love to understand the impact of mindfulness on interpersonal relationships. Before that, would love to double click on something that you that you spoke about last time, you mentioned that you've always been in technology. Right? Just curious, because technology requires a lot of left brain and the kind of work that you are doing, it's very holistic in nature. So how was it for you to transition from a technical background? Dealing with servers dealing with cyber security, to the space of coaching mindfulness? How was that transition for you? Well, that I like that question a lot. It's, um, 13:14 I guess what I want to say is that I feel like part of my 13:21 kind of like, we were talking about, core, who you are your core, I'm kind of a foot in both worlds sort of guy. I have a foot in this technical understanding of mindfulness, like how it affects your brain? How does intuition arise? How does that your your nervous system actually bring decisions to your awareness? So technically, what is mindfulness do for how do you practice it? How do you implement it? And then also, this more? 13:53 I've called meta awareness where I'm just kind of bringing in the whole and allowing for the non 14:01 technical experience of like, what's my soul experience in this person? 14:07 What what lights me up? And what connects me to beauty love peace, harmony? 14:14 interpersonal connection, resonance of 14:18 what? So I'm interested in both? 14:20 What are the technical past? So what's the technical capacity of empathy, right? How does that actually work mechanically? And then also, how do I talk about it? And how do I inspire that in others? 14:36 Beautiful. 14:38 Let's double click on what we were spoke, what we were speaking about. So what's the impact of mindfulness on interpersonal relationship? And you spoke about love, empathy, peace, connection? How does it show up? 14:53 In interpersonal connection, yeah, the mindfulness, the impact of mindfulness on interpersonal connections and relations. Well, you know that 15:00 If the Jon Kabat Zinn definition of mindfulness is, you know, being 15:05 his own firm, it starts with on purpose. Yeah. So it shows up, because you make it show up, you decide, I am going to be present. So when you're when I'm talking to somebody, and I said, I'm going to be present, I'm going to let myself notice the experience I am having of this other person. And I call up and down that this is a technical phrase up and down the stack. So in in technology, there's a thing called a stack. And it starts with the physical layer, right? And it goes up into the application layer, which is like your brain, right? That's the TCP network stack. Well, there's a corollary in human beings. It's kind of like there's the physical layer, how, what does it feel like for me physically, to be talking to this person? 15:54 So for example, a gigantic burly man walks in the room, it goes, Hey, Brett, how's it going? You know, okay, I am going to have a physical response to that. Now, maybe that scares me meat. I like it. I don't know. But I can pay attention to what is my somatic experience, I want to back up or I want to go, oh, man, this guy looks like a ton of fun. I don't know. But I'm gonna pay attention to. 16:23 So that's one way it shows up is the physical. So there's the awareness part that you're talking about? Right? Awareness of my own body the way my Soma. Right? So Maya is responding to this voice. Yes, right. That is responding to the height, your body structure of the person that I'm interacting with. So many things, right? body structure, race, sex, gender, affiliation, clothes, the rate at which they speak the words that they choose the tonal inflection. How's it going? Bread? How you doing? Versus what? How's it going? Bread? How you doing? Well, that same guy, same body, two completely different messages, right? To completely different input, all of that the brain is assimilating and assigning value to meaning to so fast that you don't even notice it. Yeah. Unless you are consciously aware of, unless on purpose, you're bringing mindfulness? Yes. And then what happens is something so amazing, and so incredible. You see, 17:32 so big? In terms of tape? No, yes. Good question. So a big guy walks in the room like that. He's like, and, and I can feeling this. But what happens if I think? What's it like to be this guy? Or this woman? Or what's it like to walk around in a gigantic body? Who's big and loud? And that's who you are your whole life? And do you imagine that people say things to you like, well, you're too big? Or you're too loud? Could you just calm down? Or could you just might be more careful? If you imagine that a guy like gets that kind of message? I think maybe so. 18:10 But I don't know. But that's the kinds of questions you pull off in. Yeah, yeah. So I begin to wonder, What's it like for that person, somebody walks in who's really demure like, you know, typically a woman that can have very tiny little voice and doesn't really speak up much. And I just want to, like, make space and say, like, 18:29 you, I'm gonna listen to you with every fiber of my being, because 18:36 I want you to know that I'm hearing you. 18:40 Love it. Love it. Yeah. And this is possible only when you're mindful of your own self, and the impact that you're having onto others. And that's where it's totally in alignment with the definition of mindfulness. 18:56 So great. The world is talking about great resignation. 19:01 And you are definitely an authority. You are an expert, to bring mindfulness in organizations. What do you think what organizations doing to adopt mindfulness, especially when we are talking about great resignation? 19:15 Well, that is, boy, that is a gigantic conversation right now. 19:20 Organizations are very, I think, more seriously than ever before, looking at how they can reinvent themselves very quickly. Yeah, to become more than just machines that make money, but become places that empower the people that work with them. So instead of being you worked for us, and I know this is something you're deeply aligned with you work with us, right? And we need to pay attention maybe for the first time in a really serious way. How to create an organization where people can be people, and not just 20:00 job functions. Yeah. Yeah. So things like happiness become a metric. 20:10 Rather than, you know, how many widgets did we sell? 20:16 And that's there's taking this very seriously because people are quitting in massive numbers, jobs that are not providing meaningful connection to people. Cisely. 20:28 And so it's like people are requiring now they're saying, I'm sorry. But this is add this is necessary as a condition of employment for me that I feel like my work is not toxic. 20:44 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 20:46 So businesses are getting the message, whether or not they want to. And the the interesting thing about it is that they're realizing that if they're going to be competitive in the future, this is something they have to do. 21:01 They can't remain to be competitive, if you will. 21:05 Because all their all their competitors are going to be offering better workplaces. And so they're all very much investing in a big way, spending lots of money on how to become better organizations. That's what also positions are moving towards. 21:24 Yeah, they're, they're really seriously trying to figure this out. And so there's, 21:30 they're spending on it. They're, they're hiring organizations to come in and teach mindfulness. They're thinking, there's organizational people who are experts in organizational change and organizational management, kind of trying to figure out how to refactor the way organizations are designed so that there's more 21:49 connection involved and more feedback systems more what you might call organic systems that support 21:58 less hierarchical enforced structures. Not that and I'm not against hierarchy, it's just got its limitations. Right. And so recognizing that that's we kind of reached the limits of what that can do. Yeah. And then we have to do something different. Yeah. You know, on one hand, we're talking about organizations, and more and more people are being aware of the importance of autonomy for themselves, importance of expression for themselves, the importance of living their life from a space of purpose for themselves, right. In the book, Dr. Daniel Pink spoke about autonomy, mastery, and purpose. But at the same time, 22:38 there's so much research has already been done around the importance of mindfulness and the impact that it can have on an individual. And yet, I personally come across a lot of people who find it difficult to practice mindfulness on a day to day basis. Yeah. What do you think? What is the hurdle? What comes in the way of putting that into practice? Well, there's, that's a great question. And this is something that we need to solve in, at scale. So 23:12 there are 23:14 first of all this, this is the neuro This is a neurological question. Because the part of the brain, this is the breadth, the linear thinker, right? To me, the, the, the, the part of the brain that brings this kind of high quality attention to bear is in the executive functions of the mind. Now that part is the prefrontal cortex. It's got the it's the newest part of the brain. Yeah, it's the most immature, least developed part of our nervous system. So it has limited capacity. 23:46 So it's not a surprise that when you sit down and you say, let's explore paying attention in a really high quality way, the people go, I can't do that. Well, if I said to you go lift a 200 pound barbell with one hand. 24:04 And you pick it up you go, I can't do that. Why? Because the muscle just isn't built yet. Right? So. So this, instead of doing 200 pounds, Let's do five, right? And build our way, a little bit more. So when you don't know how to ride a bike, and you say, now get your bike and drive it around. And if you just do this every day, you'll your life will be better because you'll be able to explore the neighborhood, and you get on the bike and you go, I kept trying this thing, and then you get off of it because you thought this is dangerous. I can't do that. Yeah, well, in some ways, that's like learning to be mindful. mindfulness practice is simple to talk about, and hard to do. 24:44 Now, I also want to say so I want to say that before you learn to ride the bike, you have to fall off and so you have to be willing to be uncomfortable. Yeah, in order to get the benefit. So my advice to people who say I've tried this, it doesn't work is to persist 25:01 persist, and it will get better. Just like when you ride the bike, you'll get better. And pretty soon, you can drive all around town. Now you can explore because you were willing to be uncomfortable and fall off the horse. That phrase, if you're, there's the Del. 25:15 Tai Ching, I think it is before, before a brilliant, 25:21 brilliant moment, you have to be looking uncomfortable to crowd or something like that. Yeah, I'm sorry for mumbling that phrase No, which is absolutely fine. Because what I'm listening right now is, you know, on one hand, we're talking about that mindfulness helps you build resilience. But at the same time, however, I'm How am I going to deal with the distractions which are going to come in my way? It helps you to find purpose, but how am I going to deal with the fields that I've been dealing with? It helps you to bring in the pause. But how would I deal with the running mind who's chasing something or the other all the time, right? It will bring in an element of equanimity. But how would I change? How would I stop the chase that I have? For all the materialistic things, bringing these two things together in a melting pot is not easy. 26:10 It's true. It's true. And what you what you discover is that you become the pot. 26:18 You become the pot, and you can make space for both the equanimity and the discordance. 26:28 That's the power 26:31 of that moment. I am someone who has just quit. I have all these worries. Yes, that is so you just accept the truth of your experience. You don't. So what you said, How do I deal with what you just note? I have all this. I have these all these concerns? I have these worries, I have these problems? I say yes, I do. I accept the truth of it. That doesn't mean that you're okay with it is just accepting the truth of it. 27:01 Because saying wishing it were different going well, I don't like it the fact that my mind knows so. Great. Does that change it? No. Do you want to be different? Maybe so well, then just sit down. Notice my mind is bouncing around. It's true. My mind bounces around the moment you notice that you become mindful? 27:21 The very moment you notice it. That's magic. That is absolute pure magic. That's the moment that executive function comes online. Yeah, yeah, that's, you have just lifted. So one of the things people say I can't do this very well, I'm noticing that my mind is bouncing around. 27:41 Oh, wow, that's great. You have enough mindfulness to notice that that is so yeah. And I can actually connect with that because one of my teachers 27:52 Dr. Melnick comes from where I've learned everything around coaching, she used to tell me notice what you notice this, that is where your attention is going. 28:04 Now, revisit your intentions. And as I was just listening to you how voice was resonating in my ears, notice what you notice, notice where your attention is going. 28:19 Notice, revisit your intentions. But what according to you are the possible practices that might help an individual to build 28:31 mindfulness as a practice and be more mindful in the moment? Yeah, so there's the I love the question, because there's a part two to the bicycle story. And it leans very well into this. Yeah. The traditional practice, from mindfulness to sit down and do this mindful breathing exercise, right? You breathe, and you simply pay attention to your breath. And then it can go a lot of ways. There's a lot of different ways, and there's body scan meditations and open awareness. And all of those are great. But there are, there are some people because your question to what do you say to people who say that this doesn't work for them? There are some people that doesn't work for that they would work if they could do it. They're just not neurologically wired up for it. So and I just want to say, Blessings to you. 29:22 That doesn't mean that there isn't a way, right. 29:25 So one of the practices that I teach, and I love this practice is what I call 29:33 enlightenment by 1000, yummy moments. 29:37 And what it means is simply to notice what lights you up, and this is one of the first teachings in my practice. 29:48 What lights you up? When do you go? That's so great. I just love that. Like what makes your heart sing? Yes, it's beautifully beautiful, right? What makes your heart sing what causes you to go 30:00 Oh, wow, yeah. Because in that moment, are you worried about what to do next? Are you thinking about how much money you're gonna make? Are you worried about what someone said to you? No, that is a perfect moment of presence. 30:15 Yours, your mind goes completely blank, right? In that moment. There's this. Ah, 30:22 wow. 30:24 Now, once you've noticed that you're having one of those moments, and here's the mindful part, you notice that you're having it, you decide to stay there for about an extra three or four seconds. 30:37 On purpose in the moment, John, Kevin Sims definition setting on purpose in the moment, and no judgment, right? So I look up in this gives one of my 30:47 100 times a day purchase, look up in the sky. See a cloud. Wow. So amazing. I love this guy. So notice I'm having a well, now I don't make it a big deal. I don't go I must have a spiritual experience. I'm connected to Maha parent Ivana will maybe great good for you. But it doesn't don't try to make it big. Yeah, just let it be what it wants to be. Yeah. No, because the moment I'm trying to make it big anyways, I'm not in that mindfulness moment. 31:20 There is a affinity and aversion. Right. Every time when there's an effete affinity or an aversion I'm anyways, not in that sweet spot. 31:29 That's exactly that. So you're just noticing what lights you up. It can be a face, it can be your children, it can be your lover, it can be a dog, it can be a cat, it can be a song, it can be a cloud of flower, there's some there's beauty, a mountain, there's beauty everywhere. 31:48 And all you have to do is sit and let yourself be present for that experience. As an elegant mindfulness practice, then someone walks in the room. And you've done this 400 times in the last three weeks. What are you going to notice? What lights you up about other people 32:11 know that then part two of this is begin to notice when other people light up. 32:17 Right? So you're talking to somebody and somebody says, Oh, you know, I went to see this movie, and it was just so great. Right, then here's the somatic, right? Just so they're bringing their hands together, they're open, they're their face opens up, their voice changes. That is what they call neurologically Olympic state shift. They're just they're telling you a thing. They're going suddenly they're in this moment of amazingness. And what do you do as a mindful communicator? You notice that you're fully present for the other person? Yeah. And a part of you resonates with it going? Oh, yeah. I've had moments like that. And here's the magic. Here's the communication part. Just name it. You just say that sounds like it was really great. Yeah. And they go, yeah, it was and you what you've done is a little service. You've helped them ground a little more in the Wow, of that moment. 33:16 And you've demonstrated that you're paying attention. Yeah, yeah. And you're letting letting go of the walls that you had unconsciously. invisible walls between you and other person, you experience oneness in that moment, because you become a part of their world whose surface? Yeah, 33:36 because at the end of the day, we're all human beings. And we all have so much in common, there's vast differences. But I can't even begin to name to you, the 100,000 things that we know about each other. 33:55 It's amazing. We all know what it's like to be sick. Foner what it's like to be hungry. We all know what it's like to be a being that is so helpless. If somebody didn't take care of you, you would die. Yeah, yeah. You know, that brings me when you're talking about, you know, we all get sick. We all know what it feels to operate from a space or basis. Just curious. That's the last question. But I'm sure you come across people specifically in your close circle, in your family or in your friends. 34:30 And I know there's a bit of judgment there as well. So please bear with me. When I know when you know that they are not operating from a space of awareness and they are allowing their past patterns, their fears and their insecurities or their ability to project their insecurities onto you. They are operating from that space. How do you deal with that and how do you maintain that equanimity, that mindfulness with them, and yet, assist them in their journey to build more awareness? 35:00 Wow. I mean, isn't that the question of how do we build a world that works for us at a bigger scale? And, yeah, it's really at the heart of how do we build a world that we all want to be in? Yeah. So here's what I do. And I want to put a big underscore here, to the best of my ability, because I am a limited human being, and I have my own sets of reactivities, and judgments that limit my capacity. But what I'm at my best self, 35:33 I'm aware that every single person I meet is limited in some way. 35:38 I also have a belief because I do all this training in psycho somatic psychotherapy, that if you really No, good, we talked about this in some depth that sometimes everybody does what they do for reason. 35:51 Now unconscious or not, whether the behavior is good or bad. 35:56 If you ask someone why they're doing something, they can tell you why. Yeah. And have any valid reason for that. Right. So I'm just getting met. And even in very, extremely negative behaviors, 36:11 there's a yes inside to get to write. Somehow they get to yes. Now I can get really curious about what that is. How to think that if I'm in a therapeutic relationship, and I don't know, therapy and coaching, but I get curious about what is it that Oregon, how do they how are they organized in such a way that this is a yes, for them? Yeah, now, it might not be healthy. But still, that's what they got to? Yeah, right. So so the test then begins to help them examine the chain of reasoning, and so amazing. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now. So the answer your question, how do I deal with people that are more or less acting unconsciously enter kind of stuck, and unreachable, and specifically, people who are in your family or close friends circle? 37:02 Because that's where you're even you are entangled via identity, right? You are entangled with your ego is because you are attached to them? Yeah, well, you have to. So you said it very well, you have to acknowledge your attachment, your entanglement. So you have to first let yourself off the hook. 37:23 You are not going to be the paragon of virtue in this context, right. But in my, in my close relationships, 37:36 I realized that, that those people are wounded in ways that I am not. 37:44 And all I can do, as a, as a loving partner is accept the truth of that, and try to be supportive of their highest need, without expecting them to actually act on it. 38:04 So I can't have an expectation, it's my job to lift them out of our budget. It's not just because I'm never getting to them. Yeah. And I have a belief that 38:16 anytime, 38:18 organism, a human being engages with another person who's acting out of loving presence, that is a potential to be a healing encounter. Yeah. 38:30 And so that's basically it. It's like the sun's job to shine not to make the plants grow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow, I'm going to keep it with myself. The sun's job is just to shine not to make plants grow. So how can I operate from my true nature, rather than reacting to the other person's behavior, which might be coming from his or her wounds, so right, and that your reactivity is coming from your woundedness. 39:00 And we want to be gracious around all of that. Okay. 39:04 So we all have sun in us. And your job is to shine as much as that space from that gracious acceptance as much as you can. And, and that's really all we can do. And if we have enough people that are radiant, offering generative beams of service out there, there'll be enough sunshine that all the plants can grow, that want to grow. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much, Brett. I think it was an absolute pleasure connecting with you and sharing loads. And there's so much of wisdom that I could really gather in the last 2035 minutes. So thank you so much for your time. And I look forward to interact with you again. No, thank you so much. I so appreciate you and the work that you're doing. The presence you brought to this conversation was really remarkable. And so thank you for all of that.