Jose Leal

How To Seek A Radical Purpose In Life?

How To Seek A Radical Purpose In Life?

Jose Leal

Co-founder Radical (

About Jose Leal

Jose is an entrepreneur, a change agent, a paradigm shifter, a researcher, and an author. He is the co-founder of Radical Purpose, a Collaborative helping other people switch to ways of collaborating that suit their needs.

His primary concerns are in devising strategies to escape from the current prevailing systems of coercion and exposing the truths about them. In doing so, he sketches out the workplace of the future, one with a balanced environment. This frequently results in harmony and a sense of purpose fulfillment for the individual.

After 13 years of working in a dysfunctional organisation and industry, Jose realised that he could no longer live or make a contribution to the dysfunction of the systems of force. In order to create the Radical Purpose Framework, Collaborative Canvas, and Collaborative Agreement as well as co-author Radical Companies, he has spent the last seven years studying human motivation and organisational environments.

Take home these learnings

1) Exploring radical purpose.
2) Understanding the true aspect of force.
3) Impact of the environment on purpose.
4) The role of ancestors in life.

Listen to the specific part


Episode Transcript:

Intro:// What is Radical Purpose and how to find one? What role do your ancestors play in your life? If any… What's the role of your environment In helping you live your purpose… Welcome ladies and gentleman, welcome to the podcast The xMonks Drive. I am your host Gaurav Arora and our today’s guest is Jose Leal. Jose is the co-founder of radical Purpose. Org. He is good friend, an explorer, a student of purpose and helps individuals, teams and organisation discover their radical purpose. Let's take a dive and explore Jose’s insights and his understanding of Radical Purpose and how can we implement those principles in our lives. Outro:// My key take aways from this episode are: 1. Feelings are the source of culture 2. Nature wants to find the best experiment for us to move us forward Evolutionarily 3. You need to know enough to understand something in order to be able to work with it to make an impact with it. What are your key Take aways. Do share your insights and reflections with us. Please take sometime to rate the podcast and leave a comment and I look forward to meeting you again next week with another interesting conversation. Thank you, 00:00 Thank you so much, Jose. 00:03 It was such a pleasure having you here. 00:07 Thank you for having me. 00:10 I was so super excited. I am so super excited to have you on this platform called The xMonks Drive. Because longtime back I heard, I guess Mark Twain said that the two most important days in your life are the day that you are born and the day you find out why. And today, what we're going to talk about is what is radical purpose? How to find one, the similarities, and the distinctions between purpose and vision, and so many other conversations as well. So let's take a dive. And let me ask a very basic question for you. But I'm sure the world is trying to find an answer for that. What is radical purpose? How do you define radical purpose? 00:58 Radical purpose is something that most people struggle to grasp because we're so used to the purpose question. And we think of the purpose of something that we do. And the reason for radical is twofold, radical has two meanings most people are familiar with the second meaning, the one that is actually evolved later, which is the fundamental change piece of it. And so we say, Oh, that's a radical idea. And it's a radical person and all that kind of stuff. But the first meaning of radical is the root, that it is the root of something. And so radical purpose is the root of who you are. It is at the root of your behavior. And so when we talk about radical purpose, we're not talking about something that you're supposed to do outside, we're talking about who you are, and how expressing that part of yourself, letting that part of yourself express itself guides you through your life, in purpose, with purpose. So that's the definition that we have for Radical purpose. 02:21 And just curious, Jose, how did you find interest in this subject? Before we further dig deeper into this? Very Curious, tell me more about where you come from? Well, 02:31 I've been an entrepreneur all my life, and I started my first business at 16. So by 27, I started three different businesses. And one of them got acquired. And when it got acquired, I went into the corporate world and living in the corporate world for 10 years. I didn't know it at the time, but I became numb, I became numb to myself numb to my family, numb to everything around me. And that process of disconnecting, if you will, left me wondering what I had done to myself and why I had become the person I had become. Unfortunately, my mother had a stroke. And I had just separated from my wife and all of those kinds of things. I had closed down another one of my startups. And I went back to Portugal and I spent a year helping my mother recover. It was during that time that I started this process of trying to figure out why I had done the things I had done. I always thought of myself as someone that was good. And I found myself looking back thinking, Why did I do that I had laid off my own partner. I had we let go of hundreds of people within the organization. This was during era. So it was you know, hire lots of people let go of lots of people. And so that that process just killed me. It tore me up. And I couldn't understand how I was able to do it, even though I felt that I shouldn't. All the feelings told me this was not what I'm supposed to be doing. And yet I did it anyway. So that process led me to reading things. So 04:35 I'm just curious before you get there, what drove that behavior for you? I mean, you said that I should not have done that. And yet I ended up doing it. was the driving force that for you? 04:47 Well, that's the word you just used Force. 04:53 The answer is in the question. 04:56 It was the very force that I was in. And that's the discovery. Since then, I've spent seven years after spending a year with my mother, understanding this. And part of that work was understanding that not only do we have these needs inside of us that make up our radical purpose, these needs react to the environment, without us knowing, without our conscious awareness, so when we feel angry, it isn't because we consciously want to feel angry, it's because those needs aren't being met somebody stepping in our way, and that someone stepping in our way makes us feel angry. And so for me, I had built a business, and I felt that that business was going to die. If I didn't do something about taking on a more senior role becoming vice, probably vice president. And, in so doing, taking on that responsibility of thinking that I need to make those tough decisions. So I became someone I wasn't. And in so doing, that force of who I'm supposed to be, caused me to do the things that I was doing. We can allow force to push us around for externally, or we can internalize force. And when we internalize force, we end up being in a situation, where we are forcing ourselves. Because we think that that's what we should be doing. 06:43 So let me just take a pause here. And when we're talking about the Force right, they're different things which are coming to me, there are different words which are hovering around me. 06:53 The force could be the force of purpose. The force could be greed. It could be insecurity. 07:00 It could be pressure from the external world, it could be a need to compare myself because what I heard you saying is that there are certain internal needs, which were communicating with the environment. From the distance, if you were to look at your life, 07:16 in that era, 07:18 which need of yours was communicating with the environment. 07:24 And what got triggered for you. 07:30 So it was a it was a bunch of needs. So let me be a little bit more clear about force. Force happens. We use force, individuals, we use force when we don't have a better strategy to get something done. Got it. So if I know how to say, Gaurav, could you do this for me, please, and know that you will do it. That's the thing that makes me feel best. Yeah, I have that ability to have that respect with you, and vice versa. Got it. But when I don't have that ability, then I can do arm twisting, I can do arm twisting, I can incent you in some way. If you do that, for me, I'll pay you. Right, if you don't do that, for me, I will punish you. Got it. Right. And so that's the type of force that we use. We've also built force into our institutions. Most of our institutions are actually built on force purely on force. So when we have an institution that says, you must go to school, you must be on time, you must do this. And you must do that. That system of force causes us to feel the pressure, feel the force upon us, as we're trying to when our needs are trying to learn. We're actually reacting to force instead. Got it. So to answer your question, sorry for for that. But to answer your question. I had this need to keep the business I had built in the people I had hired, continuing. And I saw that the company that bought us was collapsing around me. So I didn't want to be a vice president, because that's not what I want it to be. But I took on the role because I didn't feel anyone else was going to be able to do it. And if they didn't, we were going to collapse. Got it. Got it. So that's one aspect, the other aspect, which is a little less kind to me, because that's rather kind to me, which is also very true and maybe even more true, was status. I was going to get paid more money and I was going to have a better title. And I was gonna have more responsibility. And so those things are forced as well. Because they became internalized, I'm now the VP. And now I have the ability to do whatever it is that I want to do, which includes forcing other people to do what they don't want to do. 10:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So on one hand, when I'm listening is Jose, that there was a need, that the company that I built, it should not go down the drain, and I personally feel that I'm a, I'm a person who could really handle this organization right now. And you took that over at the same time a better status, a high-paying job. And you know, as they always say, anything that you identify with dominates you, anything that you identify with anything that I identify with, dominates with you. Now, thank you for sharing that I must acknowledge the vulnerability to share what you just shared, as you said, the first one was kind to you the second one is not that kind to you. I don't know about that. But it is what it is. And I would say thank you, because that itself was for me that was revealing. But unless I acknowledge where I am, I cannot steer the direction the steer the ship in in in any other direction. Now, coming back to the same lane where we started from just what happened after once you once that was happening, and then you said seven years you have been exploring that tell me more about that. 11:37 It started in Portugal, I started reading Krishna Murthy initially, and a number of other philosophers in that in that space. And I really enjoyed the dialogues of Bolam in Krishna Murthy that they did. And they spurred the question in me because they touched, they were so close to touching the very thing they were looking for for so many years. They kept wondering why it was that we behaved in ways that were illogical to us. Our rational brain said we should do this, and yet we were feeling and doing other things. As Bolam, would like to say, you know, a dog comes around the corner sees another dog, they get angry, they bark at each other. The other dog leaves, he comes around the corner, and he's happy again. And he's waving his tail like nothing ever happened. Human being will be angry for hours for you, because sometimes for years, sometimes they're lifelong. And Bolam said, I don't that's a failure of humanity. And when both Krishna Murthy and Bolam said that it was obvious to me that it wasn't a failure. I come from the tech space. So it's a feature not a bug. 13:11 Yeah. Absolutely. It's a feature, not a bug. You know, just before this conversation, I was having another conversation with someone and we were talking about forgiveness. And that person said that forgiveness is a choice, and so is resentment and resignation and bitterness and hurt. Why because it's in it's in my hand to either choose to forgive, or to continue to keep it in my hand. So coming back to it's a feature, that definitely not a bug. 13:42 Right. And it's a feature, that at the time, I didn't realize how much of a feature it was. And I could dug deep into the old literature around psychology. And you know what, what Maslow called needs, but it's been, it's been called something different for the last couple 100 years, right? As far back as with the whole theory of evolution. We've talked about that there are innate 14:26 drives in us, 14:28 instincts, another word that's used. And so on it, there's a catalogue of about a dozen words that all point to the same thing. And that same thing is processes in us in our neurological system that make decisions and provide feedback through feelings. And it wasn't until I read one book initially by Antonio Damasio and then his 2018 book, The strange order of things. And Damasio is a researcher, a brain researcher, neuroscientist in University of Southern California. And he basically defined, identified the connection between homeostasis as a biological process that we're many of us are familiar with that maintain our fluid levels and maintain our oxygen levels, and so on so forth. At the physical level, it's a very well-understood balancing mechanism. It balances, what our need is in our body, with our ability to go get that need, so when we're hungry, it's because that need has been triggered. And it makes us want to go out and get food. And it's based on a feeling, we feel hungry, we feel thirsty, right? And so many other things. We feel like company, we feel like sex, we feel like anything that we feel like is coming from that part of us. Well, when you think about it, pretty much everything that's important to us, comes from there. 16:26 You love your wife? 16:29 You don't you didn't calculate whether she was good. And then you decided to do it. Right? You love her, you were attracted to her another feeling? Right. And so it became obvious to me and then validated by Damasio’s research that wow. As he puts it, feelings are the source of culture. Because it is feelings that actually define how we behave. He tells a story, I must tell you this one because it's I just love this story. He had a patient who had his feelings part of his brain damaged by some kind of disease or injury. And that meant that he wasn't able to feel, feel like he could feel his skin but he couldn't feel feelings, the feelings that we often call emotion. So he had 17:33 other physical sensations. He has physical feelings as in what we value, the emotions, 17:39 the emotion like feelings, correct. And so he would say, How are you doing? And he says, I'm okay, you know, everything's fine. You know, that was it very, very sort of black and white. How's your family or struggle? Because once he had this, his relationship with his wife started to fall apart, of course. But the interesting part that Damasio points out, and he has many examples of this, is he said, Okay, we're going to go for lunch. Where would you like to go? And this patient said, Well, I, think we should go to this restaurant, but I think that restaurant might be too busy. So we should go to this other restaurant. And he never said I feel he kept saying I think this and I think that that one might be busy. That one might be too thing, the food might not be good enough. And a half-hour later, he's still deliberating half hour after he was asked, he was still going through deliberations. And finally, Damasio said, Okay, stop. We need to go somewhere, we're going to go somewhere. But we cannot make decisions if we don't have that feeling that this is the thing that feels right. And that feeling comes from the part of our body that says, Wait a minute, today, you need more salt. So the thing that sounds good is the Mexican food. Today, you need more potassium, the thing that sounds good is the sweet potatoes. Right? And we just don't know that the reason we feel that way is because of the underlying needs that are happening. Right. But that's the lift, but Damasio calls an emotional lift. 19:27 Yeah. So wouldn't be a fair assumption to make that your needs triggers, or, and lifts. So your needs lift the emotion. And that drives your behavior. 19:42 needs do monitoring, so they see what's going on. So even though consciously I'm not paying attention, they're monitoring. Then they regulate. Okay, well, we need more of this. So we need to start figuring out what we need to do. And then they motivate. And when they motivate, that's when we get the feelings. So motivation is feeling. Got it. And the feeling, you know, Oh, I feel like I need to scratch something as an example, right? We just felt that we'd scratch it. We don't consciously even though we scratch our head, right? Or we feel something about someone. And you know, we see, you know, we're walking by someone, we see a glimpse of their eyes, and we hit that little feeling in our chest, and we go, oh, wow, that was an interesting feeling for that person. And that feeling is motivation. It's motivation that if we don't act on, sometimes it just goes by, like that pretty young woman walking beside us, you know, and that, or it could be the kind of feeling that haunts us for the rest of our lives. I should do this. I should do this. And I still don't and I still don't. And it's always there. 21:05 Yeah. You said something really interesting. Jose that our needs communicate with the environment. 21:13 Yes, now. 21:16 And my assumption is you're talking about the physical environment, right? 21:20 With those around us in the physical environment? Yeah. 21:23 So let's assume that there is somebody who's born in Silicon Valley. There's somebody who's born in India, there's somebody who's born in Bhutan, there’s somebody is born in Africa, their needs are communicating with their environment. So how much impact does an environment or where you're born into have onto your purpose? 21:51 That's a very good question. Your purpose is, is 22:02 your ancestor's wisdom. So 22:10 imagine, that's where the times he said that he is a very, very old soul? Yes. Or she's a very old soul. God, tell me more about that. That's very interesting. 22:22 Well, we think of souls, as something that is ephemeral, right? It's not physical, I believe. And this is a belief of mine, not something that is backed up by science that I know of, at least yet, yet. I believe that when we point to the soul, we're pointing to information. We're pointing to the information that has been passed down for millennia, 22:59 from our forefathers, 23:02 and that every generations knowledge is put back into our genes in the form of information. And we learned from that, and we evolved from that we are in an accident, our genes and how we become who we are individually is not an accident. It is a purposeful process of learning from the environment. And passing that along to the next generation, and learning from the environment and passing it along. So what I am made of what you are made of, from a needs perspective, from a purpose perspective, is a piece of everything that has ever been learned behind us. 23:54 So now when I'm listening is that your purpose is a function of the ancestral wisdom. That's one equation. Another equation is your needs communicate to the external environment. My assumption is, thus your environment has some impact on to your purpose as well. Now, there are a lot of things in this melting pot now. So I've got purpose, I've got ancestors' wisdom, I've got the environment, 24:23 please. So the ancestors' wisdom is purpose is your purpose. 24:28 irrespective of where you are born. 24:31 irrespective of where you're born, that is your purpose. Now, when you're born somewhere, that creates a certain level of influence on who you are, you start to accumulate. Right? That learning that influence right? And as that happens to you, your purpose starts to work with that material, that new information of what is around you to arrive at the best outcome for you. 25:11 Got it. So putting everything together, your purpose has been handed over to you, 25:24 from your ancestor's wisdom, and where you're born into starts to communicate with the environment. And that that that has an influence on to you is my understanding, right? Correct. Now help me understand that how come? And I know that I'm labeling one, I’m laboring right now, but for the, for the purpose of having this conversation, I'm using that right? How come a sinner is born in the family of sages? How come a sage is born in a family of sinners? 25:57 So imagine 26:01 that what nature wants is to find the best experiment 26:08 to move us forward. Evolutionarily speaking, 26:18 and so that if you have a dozen children, if all of those children were exactly the same, 26:30 you would have absolutely 26:34 no ability to do something different because they'd all be acting in very similar ways. What nature does is it picks that wisdom from the past. It shuffles it around for each one of us. So we don't all come up to be copies of our history. We are a piece of that copy of that history. And that piece is unique. It's what makes us so unique. And it is then for us to express that purpose to see if the experiment that we are 27:22 is a successful experiment. 27:25 And imagine that you are, you might say a sinner as an example. 27:30 Yeah, I would say labeling it. Absolutely. Absolutely that Yeah, 27:34 yeah, it but let's say we use that term center is someone who, for example, might be too aggressive, might be willing to lie might be physical with people, that kind of thing. Let's label that as well for that term. In a certain context, that is the best person for the environment 27:58 for war, 28:01 and everybody else is a pacifist. 28:04 That's not going to serve us very well. Is it? 28:08 Right, we're in a situation 28:10 in a system that one is a part of could be a possibility that might not be visible to you because you are involved in that system. And you're not able to look at the system from the outside. 28:20 Correct. Okay. Correct. And so 28:27 we don't know exactly where we're going to be born. And we don't know which of the purposes will excel in the environment that we're born into. And so that mix that happens naturally provides for this differences. Otherwise, we'd be carbon copies of our parents. 28:56 And my assumption is, there's no formula as of the humanity is aware of right now, based on which it's distributed. One comes in somebody's lap, the second flavor comes in somebody's other's lap, right? 29:12 There seems to be some influence in the upbringing of the mother. Hmm. So if a mother has a stressful upbringing, that influences the offspring towards becoming more stress, either resistant or incapable of adapting to it. So it's very interesting there. There's research in both sides of that, of that the model, 29:44 nature versus nature versus nurture, 29:48 that the state of the mother during pregnancy influences the outcome of the child 29:58 and the environment also has an impact on to this person's upbringing. Exactly. So, a lot of factors are coming together. Yes, to bring a purpose for someone. 30:10 See, I would be careful with that, because I would say that the purpose remains the same. Hmm. It is the way that the purpose manifest that changes. So, I see purpose as five aspects of radical purpose being just taking care of the body, meaning, which is making sense of the world. Impacting which is acting in the world. Belonging, which is working with others being with others connecting with others. And finally, 30:51 becoming, and becoming, is about 30:57 the sense of have I achieved what I need to achieve. It's what keeps us feeling like, well, I could do more, I could be more, there's something in me that says I could be more I could be I could do those aspects. And those come from a lot of different researchers in the literature. Those aspects of our purpose, they don't seem to change. If I'm high in create, which I am, for example. I'm high in create all my life. But when I was a child, I created toys from fig trees. I would make slingshots and all kinds of things. And at some point in my career, I was actually working in architecture. Right, and now I'm creating a framework for helping people understand purpose. So creativity is the thing that I am, the environment I'm in has changed, and therefore, how it's expressing itself is different. 32:10 Got it. So two questions I have. One is finding a purpose, discovering a purpose, whatever you may call it, how much is it in my hand? Or is it the sheer product of the nature of the universe? That's one question. The second question is, what's the connection between the purpose the radical purpose that you're talking about Jose, and what you're doing for your living. So you may want to pick up either one of them. And let's, 32:44 let's start with the first one. So the, 32:49 your purpose is not something you will find. 32:54 It is something that you see in yourself, that you start to be aware of in yourself. I told you about those five dimensions, you can see which one of them makes you feel more energized, which one motivates you? Meaning is about learning. So it's pretty easy. I need to learn, I need to learn. I know so many people are like, I don't need to learn that's okay. But I need to do, let's go do this thing. I have a nephew who loves to work with his body. He loves sports, he loves to work out he loves, doesn't like to learn doesn't like to do. That's being so we have the awareness, if we can, if we can intellectualize that awareness, we can understand it and name it and give it some structure for ourselves. Give it some sense of what it is. And we're not finding it. We're simply being aware of what's already happening. And we certainly don't find it outside. So that's the answer to that question as best as I can say, 33:59 but 34:01 how does it relate to your work? 34:03 Now let's let's take a dive into this first. Yeah, that so you said that somebody who's able to somebody who loves working with his body, that's the being part of it, right? So that's one of the five dimensions, the other dimensions you spoke about is meaning impact belonging, becoming any more about that as well. So 34:23 we all of us have all the dimensions, right? But we're higher in some and others that that's the mix. That's what gives us our unique personality. And when we're high in in some of these dimensions, then those dimensions are the ones that give us most of our motivation. So imagine, you probably know people in your life that are, for example, very, very, very good at understanding things. They can make sense of anything. And you say, okay, good, let's go make something with it. And They go, Oh, I don't know. They're very good at understanding. And they are very good at capturing the information, but they do not have the motivation to create or to make an impact of some kind. And then there are people who love to make an impact, they just keep doing things. They don't always understand what they're doing. And they always dig deep into understanding it. Right, but they just start doing it. And we think, wow, those are weird people like They're strange. Some are like this. And somehow that when we are very strong, very high in one of these dimensions, our conscious knowledge of our purpose is, that's what I need to do, because that's what motivates me, that's who I am. But in this environment, I need to do it in this way. So I need to also do some more of this, which is something that I need to nurture in me to be a little bit better at. 36:08 Right. But we, 36:11 you know, the positive psychology folks, were right, in some way. They're pointing at the knees that are strongest in us. Right, and, and so when we have this, the strongest desires in us, those are the things that are that we can work in flow, live in flow with Got it, when we're forced to do the other things, and we're not. So 36:42 would it be a fair assumption to make that you know, just be aware, what are those things that you are doing that gives you joy that actually makes you feel as if you're in the flow, and if you continue to walk that path you will be able to meet? Or you will be able to 36:56 find that purpose for yourself? 37:03 Be aware of that purpose? Yes, I would say, yes, I find that being able to actually build for yourself an understanding of that dynamic, because those things aren't separate, they also lead from one to the other to the other, you need to know enough to understand something in order to be able to work with it to make an impact with it. Often, the people we want to belong with are the people who share meaning with us and share the impact we want to make. Those are the people we want to be with because that's the thing that motivates us. So those are the people that motivate us. And so understanding the complexity of that dynamic. And understanding that one thing helps the other. And being aware of that. So not simply saying, Okay, well, this makes me happy. But understanding that this is this dimension and that this dimension requires these two other dimensions to be to provide it with energy. And that's why we call it the dynamic because it's the energy flows from one to the other, I have to find this valuable, in order for me to want to work in it. And then when I create with it, I have to see that creativity come to nurture something to create something so that I can show the world and show others that will value my relationship with them. And so we start that process. So it's not just what makes me happy. It's what's the flow of the things that are happening. Got it. 38:54 So building it from here, let's look at the another question that I asked you, right? What's the connection between radical purpose and what you are doing for your living? Does that mean that the moment have been able to relate to my purpose? So that means purpose is not what you do? Purpose is who you are. Whether I am a fruit seller sitting on the roadside, or I'm a marketing executive, or I am an architect or doctrine, engineer, or a CEO, how does this impact 39:32 what I'm doing? 39:37 Depends on why you're doing it. So I told you the story earlier in our conversation today about being a vice president. And I was doing it not because it was my purpose, or had was related to my purpose. I was doing it because it was, I felt the force to do it, and was going against my purpose and that's the reason Isn't that my purpose actually disconnected? Right. And that's why I no longer had the feelings I used to have. That's why I became numb. Because I became so disconnected from myself, because I was doing all the things I was forcing myself to do all the things that went against the very thing that I was directed by something to do. So that's a big, because most people actually have a big part of that in what they do. Precisely. Right. They're being forced, by themselves, by their families, or by others, by society at large, are self 40:35 imposed fears and assumptions. Correct. You know, I come across so many people, including myself, why to talk about somebody else, you know, to do also, as much as I find joy in doing certain kinds of thing. I find myself in flow when I'm in that kind of environment or when I'm doing what I'm doing. But at the same time, there are so many distractions that I continue to create for myself, or I continue to encounter, for example, the fear of the past the fear of the failure, the fear of being judged. What would people say what if I don't make money, people are doing so much work on social media, he's doing that much she's doing that much this person is raising, raising funds, he's starting another startup. 41:20 In that moment, 41:22 there's something that pulls me towards those distractions, and experience so much of frustration, irritation, hatred, jealousy hurt. 41:32 Just curious. 41:41 How to deal with this, because I'm sure it's not the case only with me. 41:45 No, it's not in it. And that's why becoming aware of your purpose is so critical. Because you can start to see what is coming from a reaction to force in what is coming from my own purpose. And it's difficult to initially feel it, the difference. Because the feeling of hate, that comes from a natural, purposeful, this is that person is trying to stop me from going that path that I need to go. And that's the motivation to push them out of the way and just keep going. Right? Is that the anger that comes or the hatred that comes from force itself. And pushing that person away, actually isn't what you want to do. So it is, it's the understanding that the needs are in communication with the external environment, and are feeling the force and reacting to the force. It's not always that they're reacting from our purpose. And once you can separate those two things, I like to say that needs and force are two sides of the same coin. Yeah. Right. Because I can do something from my needs, or I can do something through force, or width for more or less the same thing. It's not, it's not coming from the same place. But the the forceful behavior is perceived by others as, Oh, he's just being whatever, right. And so it becomes, it becomes difficult for us to see in ourselves and in others, what the source of that is force or need space behavior. 43:57 You know, another theory says that your dharma were something that is something which is right to do. It's like being honest, living a life with dignity. Being kind to people being compassionate to people is the is the right thing to do what we call as dharma. Right, living your purpose. Yeah. And then they say that it's extremely important to have that true nature right, what we call as absolute nature, what we call as sawbhav. And once your dharma meets your sawbhav, which is your absolute nature, it gives birth to Swadharma, which is your purpose. Now, where is what according to you is the connection between absolute nature and how to identify that and finding your purpose or living your purpose on being your purpose? 44:41 Could you have said again, I'm not sure I understand the question? 44:45 What's the connection between your absolute nature? 44:53 I mean, so a question prior to that is how to find your absolute nature when I'm so much stuck. When I'm amids this feel this comparison, this rational, this jealousy when I'm admits that how to find your true nature, how to find an absolute nature and the connection between absolute nature 45:15 and finding your purpose. Part of the problem is that we use our conscious rational thought, to try to figure out our purpose. 45:29 It's not about rational thought. It's about awareness, awareness of the feelings, and the behaviors that are associated with those feelings. We cannot think our way out of it. And we can't think our way into our purpose. What we can do is simply see the feelings that are happening, which is the purpose in action. Check to see Oh, is that really coming from me? Or is that a reaction to something else outside? Right, or an internalized belief that I've said, oh, I need to be this. So therefore I'm going to do precisely. And then in that awareness, those things dissolve. We don't have to fight them. We don't have to intellectualize them, they dissolve. As we consciously become aware of the flows of these different needs, and how they show up in us. The conflict starts to dissolve itself. 46:47 And so we're no longer trying to 46:52 intellectualize Why should I Why shouldn't die, and I could have and I should have, and all of that. And all of a lot of the feelings we get is from that force that we apply for my conscious selves. Because we're so forceful upon ourselves, because of what we've learned. We've been conditioned to think I should be and I will be, and I, I'm not doing this enough. And I'm not doing that enough. That that force, whenever there's a feeling the force says, stop. And there we are. Our purpose never emerges, because we put a blanket on it. 47:38 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a beautiful thing that I read long time back by a gentleman called Joseph. He wrote, he wrote a book called synchronicity. In that book, he said, It's so beautiful. H he says, If you reach deep into yourself, you are reaching to the very essence of mankind. If you reach deeply into yourself, you are reaching to the very essence of mankind. You know, what I'm listening to you right now. 48:07 The one thing which is coming in front of me is that, how can I start 48:14 to listen to my feelings. 48:17 Without letting my rational mind to say, This is who you should be, this is what you should be doing. Which is extremely difficult, because a part of me says that you should have a lot of money. 48:30 You should drive the best of the cars. 48:34 You should be the Vice President, CEO of this company, you should be the owner of this startup. And my true nature is something else. 48:40 Right. 48:46 Enjoy an experience. And that's the last question. Joe's 48:55 what could be the possible steps to walk on this path of connecting with who I am? 49:06 And I'm very mindful of not using the word-finding who you are, discovering who you are. I'm saying meeting. 49:16 Yes, thank you. Thank you for that language. That's exactly it. Well, we're developing some tools to help with that. And the reason for the tools is because we need to be able to have a map of what we're looking for. It is not to dissect it or to build a model of it or things like that. It is simply to have a map to what you're looking for. And when you have a map to what you're looking forward, it helps you understand what it is you're looking for. So radical purpose than the five dimensions that I've discovered. with you today. We have a In our website, which is radical, we've got a little profile app, it's still in beta, it's it's being developed, and we're changing it on the regular basis. But what it does is allows you to take this little assessment, and it gives you a sense of which of your needs are hiring. And it starts the process of understanding. Okay, so these are the, these are the dimensions, these are the sub-needs that are in each dimension. These are the feelings that come from those different dimensions. So now I'm starting to understand a map. When I feel this, what's the likelihood that it's coming from this dimension or that dimension? And I can feel that McEnroe? Oh, yeah. Okay, that's my status talking. Okay, if that's my state of stalking, then it's speaking with this conditioning that I've had. Because each one of our needs collects its own set of conditioning. And so I can see where the conditioning is, and therefore understand that, be aware of that. I hope that that answers your question. 51:14 At least it puts me on the right track. So that that's where the direction is. And you know, this reminds me of the work. Richard Baratte has done the space of different levels of consciousness or Robert Keegan has done adult development theory. So I think thank you so much, Jose. I think that's a good start to put ourselves on that lane, on that highway where 51:39 a lane that might assist us to be aware of, to watch out of our needs to watch out of our rationals that may be coming in our way. 51:51 Absolutely. Going ahead, 51:53 embracing who I am 51:56 connecting, becoming aware of who I am, and then allowing myself freedom to be because once we do that, then there's no stopping us. Thank you. Thank you very much. 52:11 sheer pleasure having you join us and I look forward to interact with you again. I'm sure our paths would cross. 52:18 Thank you so much. 52:19 I appreciate thank you so much. 52:22 Have a wonderful day.

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