Dr. Pat Williams

Intro: Sometimes, some conversations become Masterclasses for you, and you experience growth in that hour - In this conversation, we explored what is Coaching and how it is different from other modalities of human Development - We ruminated, what it means to get wrapped up in your own success and image and how it impacts your life - How does Transformation look like from the lens of a Coach? And we had so much fun Welcome, ladies and gentleman, welcome to the Podcast The xMonks Drive. My name is Gaurav Arora and our today’s guest is Pat Williams. Pat has over 35 years of experience, he is one of the Pioneers of Coaching, an MCC Coach, An author, and one of the founders of International Coach Federation. Let’s learn from the Original Gangster of Coaching, Mr. Pat Williams OUTRO Few Questions Something that’s going to stay with me is “Connect with the Humaneness in the other person.” Also, I am taking away few questions from this conversation including “What needs to happen? And what resources would get you unstuck? Who do you need to call what needs to occur? What is your Key Takeaway. Please do share and I look forward to reading that. Also, Please do rate this episode and write a review and help me get better. I look forward to meeting you again with yet another interesting conversation next week. Till then, stay tuned and stay blessed. Thank you, 0:02 Gaurav: Thank you so much, Pat. It's such an honor to speak to somebody that I've always admired. I've always looked up to. The world knows you as an ambassador of life coaching. And here, I am curious. How did coaching happen to you? 0:19 Pat: Well, you know, that title kind of was given to me by some of my students in the early days. And I joke because if I'm the ambassador of life coaching, I'm still looking for an embassy somewhere in the Caribbean islands, would be great. But I might, my previous background was psychology, bachelor's, master's, and doctorate. But I studied humanistic and transpersonal psychology, so more of the human growth, human potential, not about pathology, not about being broken. And so I was already embodying a coaching philosophy without knowing what to call it. I used a lot of self and in therapy, we expressed who we are with, our client. And when I started discovering executive coaching in 1990, I started doing coaching at corporations like Hewlett Packard, IBM, etc. where I lived in northern Colorado. And I would do the same thing I would do in my office, if they came to me as a psychologist, but I do it in their office, call it coaching. And it was still helping them be a better person, better leader, better manager, whatever. And then when the coaching movement kind of started in the early 90’s, with Thomas Leonard and coach University and CTI and I helped form the ICF, I knew I had found my tribe, because I said, “Oh my God, in six months, I closed my therapy practice, went full time into coaching.” A year later, I moved to a whole new town with a new relationship, starting my kind of starting a new chapter in my life. So coaching opened up a whole sphere of new possibilities to me, and the way I would just summarize it is I think I had like a, if you know, a periscope, where you can put it and see around the corner, I could see that coaching was going to be the next big thing, I could see that it was going to reach more people than counseling or psychotherapy or, tennis because you didn't have to be broken to see a coach, you didn't have to have something wrong with you (precisely) wanted something better. So I really could see it coming and a little that I know I would create a coaching school and be 30 years in coaching and written all those books, but I knew it was going to do something for me to show up in a different way. Hmm, 2:45 GRV: Thank you. So you said that coaching is not for broken? It's for primarily who's looking for something in the future. So just curious to understand from a master himself. How do you define how do you actually create a distinction between psychotherapy or different forms of counseling or therapy? And coaching, on the other hand 3:05 Pat: Well, I tell a lot of my students and mentees that it's really the context of the relationship, what is the client think they want, if they've got deep emotional wounds that they have to work through if they've got post-traumatic stress like I used to do in therapy, if they've got tremendous hurt, that needs to be dealt with. They're not ready for coaching. But a lot of people can have emotional angst and mixed emotions going through life. Because if you're passionate about making changes in your life, you will have emotions. And I define emotions as energy in motion, e- motion. Yeah, we have scientific proof that there is energy there is there's heart energy, there's things change in the brain when people express their emotions. For my long life. I'm now 70 and I remember in my teenage years 12, 14, I was influenced by my dad, who was a very good father that emotions are okay, it's okay, boys cry, it's okay if you share your emotions. And I also learned that in communities I was part of. So I began to see the value of not stuffing things not holding in. And I think coaching is a way to partner with somebody where they get to say what they've not said, You think with not fit, think with him not thought, maybe feel what they're feeling, but share it with a committed listener and in a safe environment. Where they don't have to be there's nothing wrong with their expression. They're just getting accepted for who they are, and then who they want to become or how they want to be. 4:49 GRV: So I would love to hear, You are one of the pioneers in the space of coaching, and in fact, you started the 12th coach training school in the world, Just curious, what has been your philosophy in coaching? 5:06 Pat: Well, actually the conscious living mastery is my new program based on my four decades of coaching my 12th school was the Institute for life coach training. And one of my books was based on that. So becoming a professional life coach. My philosophy is probably influenced by my background in humanistic and transpersonal psychology that people are driven by a purpose that they have yet to define. Carl Jung said usually after age 40 or so midlife, whatever that is, we kind of feel like we need to find out what we really want to do with our life. But I often ask people instead, what does your life want you to do for it? What is life for you? So my philosophy is that life is an experiment and an experience and a coach. Coaching conversations can ask questions that you haven't thought about it. Like, well, how do you want things to be different? What's your dream? What's something you gave up on? What's the dream you gave up on? Hmm. So I think my philosophy is that within each of us is kind of a, I might even call it a genetic blueprint to me to be a unique entity in the world. We're all born with a uniqueness. Everybody has a unique purpose, and maybe more than. And so coaching is there to help develop that. And I call designing a future rather than getting over a past. 6:31 GRV: So beautiful when you're saying that. What does your life want you to do? And you use the word experience and an experiment and the quite the job for the coaches to ask a question, so that you can explore that you have not yet explored thing that you have not given a thought to feel that you have not yet felt, see that you have not said. Absolutely beautiful. 6:52 Pat: So one of the key components of coaching is that you know, in the competencies of the ICF, they don't mention curiosity, but curiosity. And I add compassionate curiosity is where the coach doesn't get in the way of the clients understanding. I'm not there to be some wise guru giving them you know, whatever wisdom I know, I'm there to ask questions that neither one of us know the answer to. Yeah. And into the curious which helps me be non-judgmental, even culturally, even cross-culturally, if I was coaching somebody from a different country, different background, if I'm compassionately curious, I won't get in the way and step over that with some embarrassing folk-pop about my beliefs about them. I can say, what's it like for you? What is it you want? What are the resources that you have available to you? What are the blocks that get in the way? Those are just questions are curiosity, 7:51 beautiful, and this reminds me of my conversation with a dear friend of mine, John Spence. He's considered to be one of the top 50 coaches in the world. He has been awarded several times based on of US. And other day, I was talking to him, and I was been curious to ask him, “Hey, John, what have you noticed in few of the best coaches that you have dealt with?” And he said, “They've always been compassionately curious about the other person.” 8:18 Pat: There you go. There's the word. 8:20 GRV: And while I was listening to you, I could connect with him because that's exactly what he mentioned. And also whatever little work I have done, I think, when I'm genuinely interested in the other person, and then compassionately curious, yeah, something emerges in the moment. And also, Pat, I remember my conversation with Sir John Whitmore. You've done a lot of work with him. 8:43 Pat: A good friend of mine even stayed at my house when I lived in Florida once yes, 8:48 he was a great, great friend, great colleague. 8:50 GRV: So I remember my conversation with him way back in the year 2012-13. 8:56 And I asked him, “Master, 8:59 in case I would like to learn coaching, how can I be even an effective coach on a better coach.” And you know, the deep voice that he has and the way he loves and he loved his gut out. And he said, “Learn to observe a small child.” And the curiosity with which he asked questions, and then he started laughing. 9:22 Pat: That's brilliant. Yeah. So I actually gave that assignment to a high-powered executive. I had once that didn't have children, but she had nieces and nephews. I assigned her to go to the park and watch the children and see what the alert. 9:36 GRV: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I think that kind of innocence that they bring in. That's what is required, not only to become an effective coach, but I think, to return back home, to become the human being, that you all are meant to be. 9:55 Pat: Yes. And we as coaches have to get out of the way. I mean, I know, I'm a good listener and a compassionately curious person and non-judgmental, and I'm creating this space where the client can explore. But if I get in my own way by thinking, “Oh boy, if I asked this question that'll be brilliant, or here's some advice I need to give them.” That's where it stops. We need to create the We Are the conduit for learning, not the giver of learning. 10:25 GRV: So what is the metaphor that comes to your mind when you think of coaching? 10:31 Pat: Oh, well, I just use the word conduit. I think we're kind of a vessel. We're kind of a 10:37 wow, I think of the word. 10:41 What’s that scientific term for turning something into gold, metal into gold? I'm blanking out. There's a good book written about it. In fact. 10:56 Yeah, I know what you're saying where you don't 10:59 come to me. But it's like we are a container where the client can put their wants and needs and frustrations and emotions and I just put myself in there with them. Furnace, are you talking about? What when this? No, not furnace? No. 11:16 vessel? Yeah, it's a vessel? On a boiling pot. 11:22 Yeah. Were you put in physics, you put in two minerals and 11:26 become something else? 11:28 Pat: But we are. So maybe we're mixtures of the recipe, but we're not the answer. We're just we ask questions that they hadn't thought about. They, relate to us with some energy, and we can notice shifts in the person that it may not you can't coach yourself, I can coach myself all day long walk around my house. But as soon as I have a conversation with another person, then if, I hear myself differently. I get a different perspective. Yeah. So I think my philosophy of coaching is like we're this vessel that holds this stuff, for it to become 12:07 something new and 12:10 co-created. 12:12 GRV: Thank you so much Pat. So Pat, you've been in this space longer than thousands of people who are coaching right now. Yeah. When you started to think about let's create an industry around that. Today. I've heard people talking about leadership coaching, executive coaching, teenager coaching, and parent coaching relationship coaching and 12:40 10 different kinds of coaching. 12:42 What is the difference in all that, if there is at all. What are your views. Yeah, 12:48 Pat: my philosophy is it should all be whole-person coaching. When I did executive coaching, I did government coaching, leadership coaching, I might have a specialist, some coach might have a specialty niche, maybe they're really good with relationship coaching. Okay, teen coaching, business. I mean, if I hire a business coach, I expect they're going to know something about business, right? But we, if we, forget the being of the client, which now is emphasized in the new ICF competencies coming in 2021, we don't get to the underlying uniqueness of the person as a human being, as opposed to the human doing. So for me, it's all life coaching. I would not put life coach on my business card, but it is what I do. My book, my institute, the Institute for Life Coach Training, which I sold after 12 years, and it continues to thrive the books I've written, but I wouldn't call, I might call myself a personal development coach or a whole life coach or a leadership coach. But it's all about becoming the most fulfilled human being you can be in the role that you play. Yeah. Does that make sense? 14:04 Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. 14:06 Pat: Coach, the whole, we help coach the whole person. Quick example. So when I get a contract with somebody with a government agency or corporation, they would have me agreed these three things are what we want you to work on with this manager. And I would agree to do that the manager would agree to do that. But then I would tell my client, we can talk about anything you want. The stuff about your family, your marriage, your health, your kids, your, that won't go on the report, what will go on the report agreed upon by you will be the goals that they set for us. But you talk about anything you want. 14:42 Yeah, yeah. In fact, I have a question around that. Okay, I'm going to ask you in a while, because I personally feel when you're talking about that you can talk about anything. Yes. And what my assumption is because the roots would be somewhere else. So if I'm dealing with relationship issues, the roots would be somewhere else. So my question that I'm going to ask you later on is, how can we actually create that kind of transformation without digging the past? However, for the time being, I'm just parking this question on one side. Let me just ask you because I would I'm really curious about what makes Pat-Pat, Who are those leaders, Who are those coaches who have inspired you? Because you have inspired millions of people to get into coaching. 15:28 Who has been your inspiration, Pat? 15:32 Pat: You know, the first person that comes to mind is my father. I mean, I was interviewed for a magazine years ago and wanted to know the three most influential men in my life. Now, they also asked me a women so my mother was there too. But my dad was like a coach to me. He was my baseball coach, but he was my life coach without even naming that he modeled for me, authentically living, friendliness, humor, compassion, and then the other people philosophically, when I was young in psychology was the philosophy of Carl Jung. Because Carl Jung was separate from Freud, Carl Jung saw a positive future he didn't see us bound by instincts that were negative and strange, Carl Jung was about exploring the spiritual and the whole aspect of a human being. And then I was lucky enough to actually train with Carl Rogers before he passed away in my graduate schools. So this whole thing about empathic listening unconditional positive regard. Yeah, that's great. That sets the framework for coaching. If you think of the ICF says, people are whole, capable, and creative, and we create the space for that. Well, that sounds like client-centered coaching clients that are counseling. Yeah. I mean, you know, whole-person-related, create that space of allowing them to just grow. So that influence me. And then as society got more and more modern, I get, I won't say modern, maybe as evolved. I just had early coaching like Thomas Leonard, who created Coach University and the Institute for Life Coach Training. 17:14 Yeah, the founder of ICF. 17:16 Yeah, the founder of ICF, and many other things. I mean, he was a controversial character, but what a deep thinker, what a guy. And then I think some of the early coaches that have that were back with me in the beginning, who have become famous authors, famous coaches. I've got a tribe, some people call me the OG of coaching, that doesn't mean the original gangster but old guy of coaching. You know, I'm not going to retire, I'm repurposing. But I want to see the fruits of my labor having an influence not just one on one coaching, but the fact that I've done teaching and books and speaking over the world. I know I influence people that I don't even know about, like, until you contacted me, I have no idea. So, I'm honored that the waves of that ripple has reached you. And then your waves will reach other people. 18:13 GRV: Such an honor to get into this conversation with you Pat. Your base would reach out to the world anyways. 18:20 Pat: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 18:22 GRV: Yeah. So that you have done work with the likes of Carl Rogers, you've learned from people like Sir John Whitmore, you're partnered with people like Thomas Leonard. Also, I remember, during the last conversation, you used this metaphor, growing life, like Beatles, right? Growing like the Beatles. Right. And that stayed with me. Then I did some more research around you, the kind of work that you have done, I guess you have done, you have created a workshop as well, on the songs, the song teams from Beatles as well. So tell me what's your relationship with the Beatles? And how do you relate with them? 19:09 Pat: That's an interesting question. Because if I had to listen to another person who's greatly influenced me, it was Paul McCartney. That's the third person and he's my best friend who's never known me. I mean, I wish I knew him, but I feel, I've modeled myself after him. And let me just fill in the blank. So at age 14, I got to see the Beatles live in an amphitheater in Colorado with only 8200 people were there. They were flying from Mets Stadium in New York to go maybe somewhere in California. They stopped over in Colorado and did this concert in Red Rocks amphitheater and introduce the righteous brothers of the Supremes. And here I am at age 14 with my older brother, who was 17 my parents had dropped us off they picked us up after the concert. I was in heaven. I mean, I still listen to the Beatles channel a day on XM Radio. I love the variety, the growth. So I created this workshop. And I integrated now into my conscious living mastery program with some of the Beatles songs that I think are Words To Live By, like the long and winding road. Let it be, Yesterday, Help, I need somebody, you know, all those songs can be themes for 20:29 a human 20:31 exploration of what's going on in your life. Yes, people might pick somebody else, but I think the lyrics and the variety of music of the Beatles are just unbelievable. And I'm so glad they're still popular today. Because I still can't believe I mean, you know, in India, that movie that was made called Yesterday, that was a phenomenal movie about this guy that wakes up, he knows all the Beatles songs, and nobody has ever heard of them. I thought that was fascinating. So I have a workshop integrated where the songs are a theme of a 12-week course. Hmm. 21:08 GRV: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brilliant. 21:13 GRV: And you said he has been your best friend Pat 21:16 that never knew me, that never 21:18 knew you. Right. And also, you said you tend to model him? 21:24 Oh, yeah, that was the other part of the story. So Paul McCartney, for me. He was always a, how can I put this he was humorous as a Beatle, but he wasn't quite as controversial or avant-garde as John Lennon was. I mean, I love John Lennon. I loved him all, great combination of blokes. But Paul McCartney modeled family life, love of family, when he married Linda. I mean, he was heartbroken when she died. And then he made a mistake of marrying that other woman that, you know, kind of took his money and had a child just because of that. But now he's happily married again. He treats his family. Life is separate from his fame life. If anybody has seen the car, or the carpool karaoke episode with the American comedian was British, but he lives in America. I'm forgetting his name, but it's called carpool karaoke. Paul McCartney said at that point, he says, “When I'm meeting people, I'm just Paul, Paul McCartney, the Beatle is somebody else. But if you want to stop me on the street and chat with me, I'm not famous, I'm just Paul.” And that's what I model my life after. I mean, I know I've done a lot of things that have been done on the shoulders of other people in collaboration. 22:47 But I'm not, 22:48 I don't see myself as a famous person or some master. I appreciate that. Some do. But I'm just pat. And so that's the model that I get from him. 22:57 GRV: Yeah. And back last time, I remember you spoke about something. And that helped me. To get more grounded. You said something so beautiful, you said that if you start to look at your success if you are wrapped up in your success, it's going to impact who you are as a person. Tell me more about that for the benefit of all the listeners. 23:19 Pat: Well, I think you see people who get so wrapped up in their image, they forget that they're not their image, you know, they forget they're not the movie star or the rock star or the famous speaker. You just forget your humanity. I mean, I'm a lot of its good luck and good context that allowed me to create what I've created. I look back and go, man, you know, all my books, except my latest one were co-written, they wouldn't have been created if I hadn't found a partner to help me co-create it. And I also wrote what I learned from my students and from my people that taught me so we can't get wrapped up in our title or I guess we would call it ego. Because we're not was like Paul McCartney. I'm not the Beatle. I'm just Paul. So I am an influencer. But my influence comes from everybody I've learned from and, you know, experienced, I think that your question, yes, yes, 24:23 GRV: I'm just absorbing this. I'm just absorbing this. Because I also remember you mentioned that life at times, it's like a mountain where you climb and when you reach at the top of the mountain, you don't stay there. You of course, enjoy the beauty. You look around, you take the deep breath, you enjoy the fresh breeze and after some time you come down and start yet another journey. 25:03 Pat: Abraham Maslow who I also was influenced by talked about peak experiences. So there's the metaphor of the mountain, the peak, but also the peak experiences we have. We can't stay there. You know, we have life. Life is valleys and mountains. And but we want to, we want to go for reaching new heights, but we can't stay there. There's more experiences to come. 25:27 Yes, yes. 25:29 GRV: So Pat, you spoke about that. You have written several books. And you give the credit to some power, who has actually supported you? Right, and you use the word, you just got lucky. Yeah, so I'm not going to get there. But I personally feel that you have been very, very kind, you have been very, very humble, and where you are giving the credit, and not taking the credit. Coming back to the question, you have written seven books, and one of your latest books is Getting Naked: On Emotional Transparency. Right. Just curious, what do you think is the importance of emotional stability for a coach? 26:17 Pat: Well, this has become a hot topic, much to my appreciation today. Courageous vulnerability, Emotional intelligence. There's an article I just got today, the future of leadership is empathy. And companies are better for it. I'm so glad to see that because back in the 50s, and 60s, it was like, No, no feelings and relationships aren't important at work, skip that, you know, just do your job. And then Daniel Goleman, who I knew back in the day, he was actually the president of the Institute for transpersonal psychology. Wait way back, when I was also a hippie study in psychology. But emotional intelligence became a scientific way to talk about feelings and relationships and interactions. 27:07 So I think 27:09 the reason I wrote the book, and it's a book I wanted to write for years, there's a quick story I can tell if you have time, would love to. In my trainings in humanistic psychology, humanistic psychology allowed the self of the therapist to be part of the conversation, we could be empathetic, we could share a 27:30 Say it again, it allows you to be a part of, 27:36 yeah, to use the self in therapy not to be a blank slate, like Freud would have had to be to stay out of it, just you know. So, we were able to relate to the client use self-disclosure appropriately, like maybe there's a story I could share. So I read a professor of mine, I loved Sidney Girard, who wrote self-disclosure and the human experience man disclosing himself. And he came to my graduate school in 1975. When I was 25 years old. He came to my program where I was studying, and I was so honored to meet him. I had a copy of his book. And I said, Professor Girard, would you sign this? He said, Sure, Pat, Enjoy Sydney or Dr. Girard something. And I said, “Oh, I so want to write a book like this someday, this has changed the way I look at how I can help people achieve their, better life in my counseling and my therapy.” He said, “Give me that book back. So he took the book back and he said, Pat, if you never write your book, you have no one to blame but yourself, Sit.” And I still have that on my show. But here's the rest of the story. The next day, he went back to the University of Florida, where he was a professor and was working on his car, and the jack slipped and crushed him and he died. So when I heard that news, a day after he signed the book, I knew that I had a message someday to write the book that I promised him I would write. And that's what the getting naked book is. It's about self-disclosure. It's about the importance of people who are in the helping professions, learning to be honest with themselves and have somebody they can share their dark secrets or their undisclosed challenges, and then they can do that with their clients. You can't be fully present if you've got unfinished business as Fritz Perls called it, if you've got things that you're not that you're hiding, and it's not all dark stuff. It could be things you gave up on or dreams your hidden is just, they just need the light shined on them. So that's what getting naked. It's a metaphor because it feels like you're naked in public. You know, it's God. But once you do it, then the feeling or the story inside who doesn't fester and doesn't grow, it gets pressed but only with the right place the right person at the right time you don't go out in public and get naked. You do it with judicious caring and finding a trusting person like a coach. 30:11 GRV: Yeah, yeah. And while I'm listening to you, I could actually see a dance of the hope and the my hopes, the dots between my hopes and my fields happening in front of me. Yeah. Am I willing to embrace my hopes as much as I'm willing to embrace my fields as well? 30:30 Pat: We coaches just like therapists, we teach what we need to learn, or we're teaching what we have learned. Coaches are working to help people become their best self or to improve what they want to improve. But anytime I have a good conversation with a client, I learned something about myself. I'm not a perfect human being I'm in process, but I'm being there as a conduit for coaching. So that oh, here's the word I was trying to think of earlier alchemy. So the alchemical process of putting two things together in a hot pot and it comes a third. That's the alchemical process and coaching. Yeah, is like when it's at its best. 31:14 So Pat how 31:17 GRV: It emerges in the right moment. 31:20 GRV: So Pat, how do you define transformation? 31:24 PAT: Well, that's an interesting question. Because I, since I went into transpersonal psychology decades ago, that was my doctoral degree, and then it kind of hit on the shelf for a while, what does that mean? transformational coaching is going beyond transactional. So a client can come and they want to become a better leader, a better manager, get in better shape, and we can do transactional coaching about their goals and their steps and their measures. But transformational gets to the being of the person. Who are they who do they need to become, how do they need to change to realize this shift they want to make, so they not every session is transformational, but the overall goal is to have something where the light bulb comes on, and there's a transformation of what they are experiencing. I even used to play on words. I'm also a trained hypnotist from years ago not watch my watch, but ericksonian hypnotherapy, like, like your friend, 32:27 Marilyn Atkinson 32:28 Pat: Marilyn, you know, she trained and Ericksonian hypnotherapy, did i milt Erickson. And I think the word is we are in a state of trance, a lot, t r a n c e. So Trance-formation is broken. When we use transformation, t r a n s, we wake up at our trance, and we see what can be, we see new possibilities. And I think transformational coaching gets again, it's the whole person, it gets to the being of you the coach and your client. And it doesn't deny emotions, because emotions are the energy that drives us. Passion, fear, angst, sadness. If you take care of those then the energy shifts. So we're not there as a psychologist to do personal archaeology or psychosurgery. We're not going deep. We're just going under the surface, like what's behind the curtain like in The Wizard of Oz, what am I? What am I not seeing or not knowing that you're not sharing? A client? Not even know. But if you ask the question, I always say like if we pulled back the curtain, yeah. 33:40 What would you share with me? Yeah, 33:42 yeah, he might just open the curtain, he might just take the curtain off and see there's something right. 33:50 transformational waiting for him. 33:51 Yeah, the truth is, you know, blank. 33:55 GRV: And that brings me to the question that I said, I'm going to ask you, how can we go deeper and create the transformation without digging deeper into the past, like a psychologist or a therapist? 34:17 Pat: Right. That's a great question. And and the way I'd answer it is in a metaphor, I think, you know, often people, oftentimes people use that metaphor of what's shown on the tip of an iceberg. There's 90% underneath. And that's what, I hate that metaphor because what's underneath the tip of an iceberg- cold dark water. Hmm. I prefer the metaphor of snorkeling versus swimming. You can be in the ocean or the Caribbean or the Great Barrier Reef or whatever the beautiful beaches you have in India, I forget where that is going a guy I don't forget where to 34:53 go, I'll Goa, 34:54 Goa. But once somebody struggles for the first time, they might be a little scared. It is feels weird breathing through the snorkel mask. But then you get to see under the surface, the beauty and maybe dive down a little bit. Yeah, there's sea urchins a little thing that's possibly dangerous. But it's way different than diving, scuba diving 110 feet deep. We're not doing that in coaching. We're not going deep, deep, we're going just under the surface. What is the learning that they don't know? That's just right there, if they put on their mask and see it more clearly. So that's the metaphor I use. And I think coaches need to ask questions like, 35:33 What else? 35:34 Client says, what else? Is there anything else about that? Because I will guarantee you 90% of the time when a client states their initial goal. That's not what they really want. 35:47 With you on that. And Pat, you know, when people ask me this question, Gaurav, do you have any formula? I don't have any formula for that? I'm just wondering, do you have any formula? Well, I have to do that. 36:00 Pat: My formula is to not take the first statement, 36:08 as a contract 36:09 as a contract. And, and I also do some things to get the client in touch with. 36:16 Maybe it'll be a subsequent session, but I'll 36:19 I use the things from heart math, where you touch your heart, say, what's your heart message? Because we have 40,000 neurites in the heart that communicate with a brain that's scientifically proven now. What does your heart say? Not what does your head ruminate about? And right to do list about what your heart says, get on with it, or just do it? Or take a chance? That's what your heart says? Yeah. So if I have people do that, and I hear them pause, maybe their voice changes, then I say your energy just shifted. Tell me what's going on. Now, I'm not doing as a therapist, like, oh, let's go this is some old childhood wound. Yeah, look for that. I'm looking for what is preventing you, you the client? Yeah. from going something more deeply about yourself? Right there under the surface? Yeah. 37:09 So Pat, you use the word being and becoming. Yeah, you know, I get it. And when people ask, What do you mean, by being, I don't have words to explain that. If you can help me, if you have been able to decode that, I would love to hear from you. 37:31 Pat: Your country has a history of gurus and wisdom and the Upanishads and everything else. It's like, who knows, right? I mean, I remember the the old Buddhist story where the the the acolyte was climbing up the hill to ask the realized Master, what did you do before you became realized? And he said, I chopped wood and carried water here at the monastery, right? And what do you do differently now that you're enlightened? I chop wood and carry water. I just do it with enlightenment. So I think my thoughts about your question are, it's an intuitive process, connecting heart to heart and maybe spirit to spirit. I don't even know how to base your mastery, I was. I'm not even sure. I mean, I'm proud to be a Master certified coach, because I had so much coaching in my background when we started the ICF. But I'm not always masterful 38:32 GRV: Of course there’s a difference between MCCs, there are so many MCC’s in the world. And I know masterful, 38:40 yeah, I think it comes with a heart connection. And, being there for the person to express who they are and who they can become. Because everything we do in coaching is about a state of becoming. Hmm. I mean, even a person's done, I got what I wanted, I got what I wanted, they're still in a state of becoming their state of becoming till the day you die. 39:06 So that's what I'm embracing. 39:11 Thank you, what I'm picking up here from this conversation is, it's an intuitive process of connecting from heart to heart, spirit to spirit. Yes. And it's a journey of human becoming. You keep revisiting yourself. Moment by moment. Who are you being in this conversation? Who are you being in this conversation? Who are you being in this conversation? And as I often share with people that your MCCs, your MCC is very, very different from being masterful. So let's aim for being masterful. And I'm sure MCC would be a byproduct. 39:44 Pat: Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think everybody should have moments of mastery and being masterful. You know, think of the Masters in like, 39:54 Exa Perlman, the violinist or 39:58 who's the cellist that's famous, they still have coaches, they still have teachers and yet they're the best on the planet at what they do. Yo-Yo Ma, the cellist Yo, Yo Ma. I will always have coaches. I mean, I've got coaches at my beck and call, I can email somebody say, “Can we have a conversation?” I'm fortunate in that regard. I have lots of groups I'm part of so I get coaching as part of my personal continued development. Hmm. 40:28 GRV: So Pat, has that ever happen with you where you got stuck in a conversation? The coaching is going on? And you experience some kind of stuckness? 40:37 Oh, yeah. 40:38 Oh, yeah. How do you handle those kinds of conversations? And how do you make sure that you get out of that? 40:44 Pat: Yeah, I do this, and I teach this being with this stuckness. Just notice, with my client, I can say, Hmm, I'm kind of stuck right now. I'm not sure where to go next. What are you experiencing? Because we're in this together? You know, I might say to the client, what's a question I could ask you now that would get us off this point? What's something that needs to be said, that hasn't been said? They know, I don't. 41:13 GRV: So, Is that what it means when you said that using yourself in the conversation? 41:20 Pat: Yeah. Don't try to be perfect, be you. So if I say to myself, I don't know where to go. Don't hide that say, right now. Janice. I'm feeling kind of stuck. I'm not sure what's next. And they might say, Oh, I can tell you what's next. Or Me too. And I said, well, let's sit with this for a minute, see what comes? Because that's what is right there. In that moment. We might both be stuck, or I might be stuck. 41:55 Or I might be wondering what could I ask do? 42:00 experience that would move us off the stuckness? 42:03 Hmm. So that means 42:04 using that as a metaphor? Yeah. What is stuck? Tell me more about stuck, you know? Yeah. You know, in fact, when you ask me, or does that mean, I could see a bowl of noodle every day, then that's, that's not stuck. At the other hand, there's a lot of food which is intertwined. And it's totally wrapped up in each other. And I've not been able to find out how to actually make sure that I can convert that into a football. 42:41 Yeah, I use metaphors a lot in coaching. In fact, I teach another course on the magic of metaphors and coaching because metaphors, where a person's like, feel stuck, or I feel like I'm like, I'm Sisyphus, pushing a rock up a hill, and it rolls back down. I feel like I'm on a merry go round, or a roller coaster that can hide some emotional energy. But you don't need to name it or experience it just change the metaphor. What needs to happen? And what resources would get you unstuck? Who do you need to call what needs to occur? 43:12 Pat: Yeah, so I'm picking up one thing, right? What I'm picking up right now is that you use yourself in the conversation for the service of the person. And rather than avoiding what you're experiencing in the moment, you bring that as a data, where both the people can actually play with or deal with and see what emerges in the conversation. Yeah. 43:34 Pat: tPardon me for this. It's really dry here. 43:38 Yeah, I think the self in coaching means you don't. You don't make the session your session. You don't tell the whole story. Oh, yeah, I've got this daughter. She's driving me crazy. 43:47 Now. You share just enough 43:50 to normalize what the client is feeling? You know, there are only so many human emotions. And there's only so many stories of challenging. People assume that I'm the only one with this problem. No, you're not. So if I can share, you know, something like, you know, I had a client once they had this occurred. And this is what happened. It might, what do you think or in my life, I went through that. And so I'm not, I'm not giving them an answer. But I'm sharing a story that makes the humaneness of me. 44:19 Yeah. Can they miss of them? 44:23 And it gives them permission to be a little stuck. If that's where they are. And then we'll see what happens. 44:30 GRV: Yeah, love it. When you said humaneness in me. Connect with the humaneness in the other person. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for this gift. Pat. Pat, you mentioned that you always had a coach, you've always had a coach for yourself. You're a part of different groups. When you need coaching. You just reach out to those people. Hey, can I have a conversation. What are your other view? What are your other ways that you ensure that you're marching ahead your journey as a coach? 45:03 Well, I do a lot of self-development stuff. I'm, I'm working with various classes that I see that seem important to me. I mean, I get inundated with offers, but there are certain ones like morning meditation, focusing on journaling, so I'm ready for the day taking care of myself as best I can. Knowing my values, where are they showing up in my life? It's like, you know, living the life in a coach, coaching frame, even when I'm not coaching somebody. Coaching is a mindset. I think that Yeah, we can embody. 45:45 And unless you work on yourself, you'll not be able to show up. Yeah, duh for that. 45:51 Yeah. 45:54 GRV: Yeah. So Pat here's the last question. If you look at your like three and a half decades of coaching experience. What do you think, how have you transformed as an individual? Or let me put it this way? Let's talk about we're talking about Dr. Pat Williams. And both of us have known him for three decades. And he has been your best friend. What shifts have you observed in Dr. Pat, that you're really happy, really proud of? 46:34 Pat: That's a great way to look at it. Well, I'm happy to have seen him overcome his own challenges. You know, I mean, I've had life experiences, divorce, Death of a second spouse, challenging daughters. mistakes that I've made, but they they're overshadowed by a really successful, happy life. And I think it's because I learned from my side trips, I don't I don't use the word failure. I think there's only results. So where did I learn from? Where I went down this dark path for a while and came back? Or where did I learn from? Life that didn't happen the way I wanted it to? Because life is a journey. And now that I'm 70, and I started coaching to the age 47:26 of 47:27 40, you know, and started Psychology at age 30. Being a psychologist, I've grown a lot. My life experience has made my relational work with clients better than it would have been at 20 and 30, and 40. So I think that's it. I mean, seeing that I've stuck with I love life. I love learning. I will never retire. I use the term repurposing as I said earlier. 47:58 Work in progress. 48:00 Yeah, I'm not gonna live on my deathbed saying I wish I'd worked harder because I believe in fun, too. I have a lot of fun in life. And I think that we're human. You know, that's, that's a goal. If you're not enjoying life, what's wrong? Yeah. 48:14 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much Pat, I think absolute pleasure to sit in front of the master. Oh, listen to his stories. And I know that I have grown in the last one hour. 48:31 Thank you. So you 48:32 You know, I have to having this conversation. I've had a lot of insights and thoughts that come from us having this conversation. So thank you. 48:42 Thank you so much, and I look forward to our next conversation. Okay. Lifelong conversations and lifelong friendship. Thank you. 48:51 You're welcome. Very much. 48:53 Take care and we'll see you soon sometime.