Realities Of The Two Worlds: The Corporates and The Start Ups
CHRO at LEAD School
Rohit Thakur is Chief Human Resources Officer (CHRO) at LEAD, India’s largest School EdTech company, and the first unicorn in the segment. At LEAD, Rohit is responsible for spearheading employee engagement, talent management and development, stakeholder engagement, internal communication, compliance, and health and safety environment. Prior to joining LEAD, he was the CHRO at Paytm. He has also worked with Microsoft India. He spent 11 years at General Electric in various HR leadership roles across multiple businesses such as energy, capital, engineering, corporate and aviation, both in India and the US. He was also associated with Eicher Tractors, Cadence Design Systems and Bausch & Lomb.
Take home these learnings:
1. Why do Start-ups need Coaching?
2. Tips to expand a start-up environment
3. What is the importance of coaching in organizational development?
2. Tips to expand a start-up environment
3. What is the importance of coaching in organizational development?
Intro:// Welcome ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the podcast the xMonks Drive. I am your host Gaurav Arora…. Let me share with you, It was 2008, when I left the job and started an organization called Inspire coaching systems. I started partnering with different organizations, different peoples. And here we got an opportunity to meet someone senior at GE Capital. Super excited, super excited, right? Excitement beyond imagination. You know, sometimes you wonder how could you get so lucky in your life? For me, that was one of those moments. We reach the venue, and a man comes out of his room to escort us, and take us to his cabin. He hands over a card to me and the card says Name, HR leader, no designations. Nothing…. remember that right? The role is very different from the designation, who you are is how you coach. At times, you might have the best of the designations and if you don't know how to treat people well ….does not make any sense. On the contrary, whatever your card says and if you know how to treat people, well, those people are never going to forget you. The person who came all the way to escort was Rohit Thakur. Now the story does not stop there, ladies and gentleman. Finally, we ended up doing the program which unfortunately was a disaster. The very first hour in the program, people started asking questions and did not have an answer I was the more attempts that I was making to address their concerns, the more slippery platform I was jumping onto. Literally, I cried at the end of the day. Ladies and gentlemen, let me just take this opportunity and honor to introduce to you Rohit taco. Rohit, thank you so much for being here. And accepting our invitation. Rohit has over 3 decades of experience. He has worked with organizations including Eicher, GE Capital, Microsoft, Accenture, PayTM, and Lead School. And above all, one of the finest human beings I know of. One of the most humble, one of the most open, and kind hearted individuals. Rohit, thank you so much for accepting our invitation Outro:// My key take away from today’s episode are: Courage with empathy, Excellence with Velocity Customer Centricity What are your key learnings and lessons. Do share that with us…rate and review this podcast and I look forward to meeting you next week with yet another interesting conversation. Till then stay tuned… 04:50 Thank you Rohit. 04:53 The primary objective of this conversation is of course, apart from understanding You even better, because they can't afford to miss an opportunity turn to no several chapters of your life. Another thing that I would love to drill deeper into, you have worked with organizations like Microsoft to work with organizations like GE is, you have worked with organizations like Accenture's of the world, and then another phase of your life where you have worked with Paytm. And you have worked with lead school. Now, what according to you, are the similarities and the differences in companies like the giants like GE, Microsoft, and then the giants of the startup world, including Paytm and lead school? 05:38 No, I think life has been very fortunate to me, I think I've been privileged to have worked with some of the best leaders and the best companies in the world. I've learned I've learned a lot from them. I think my design into a startup was driven by element of having worked 25 years in large organizations and having mentored startups from the outside, you know, with Microsoft and Accenture to really see what is life inside a startup. And that's when I was lucky to first work with Vijay and the Paytm. Team in Noida, and now with heat school and in Bombay. I think similarities are, are are there I mean, they based on similarities, about desire to grow, striving for excellence, being market leaders, I think I think talent comes in important in both places, the desire to have a mission aligned talent, and the importance of building strong leaders across the organizations, I think these are some things that come to mind, which are, I think, important across both startups and, and large corporation that are working, I think, differences they are relative I again, I wouldn't say I'm an expert on this one. But just the three years that I've been working here, I think, more relatively, the important the imprint of the founder. And the and that individual style, in terms of how the rest of your mentioned kind of follows through and behaves and works. That founder is really a very important persona. In an organization. In a large company, there are many, many different leaders who can make it to make a different impact here is relatively higher, or the founder, I think, is evolving maturity of systems and processes. I don't, I wouldn't say system, the forces are not there, or they are weak, or they are bad. I think they're evolving. You know, since the startup is still, you know, it kind of hits its targets. And as it hits its targets kind of evolves, what it wants to do. And the core values don't change on day one or day, you know, or for five years. But the processes involved. That's the second level, I would say relatively, which is different, I think a significantly higher risk taking ability, both of the company, the startup and also the individuals inside the startup, the stakes are high. And the risks are high. In both elements, I think the kind of agility dose needed more alternatively, is different. You got to be a giant thinking your resources are, are limited. And how do you act with that kind of thing, again, is becomes important. Thinking like an entrepreneur, you know, more more than an employee? What if this was your money and your 10 rupees? How do you how do you spend it? You maximizing everything every day, is something that you start thinking thinking like, and of course funding a certain element in a large company, you never think of funding at all. Here, it's a funding is a milestone or lifeline, you know, that one has to kind of know work through. So So and I'm sure every large company I've worked with was a startup at some point of time. So I'm sure they've gone through that element as well. So I would just say it's the phase or where an organization is, and fees if there's an employee working in the organization. And that's what I think makes a different point of time and, and some similarities and some differences. 09:05 Oh, absolutely. You spoke about resilience. You spoke about the entrepreneurial mindset. You spoke about the significance of a leader who's driving that and what I could pick up from the voice tonality and the inclination. I think the influence of a entrepreneur or a founder in a startup is more because, of course, because the storyline revolves around that person. You know, since you have worked with Microsoft as well, and I still remember one of our conversations. I don't know if you will remember that or not. I remember it very vividly. I was leading a program in good Gao, I called you up for something. And in a very casual manner, you said, God, I'm just rushing for a meeting with Satya right now and I'll get back to you. It took me some time to connect the dots because in my mind, I thought you were in Accenture and Then when I started connecting dots, he said, Okay, so Rohit is with Microsoft and who's this Satya? I said, who's up there? And you said Satya Nadella. And then the penny dropped for me, right? Satya Nadella is considered to be one of the finest leaders today in the world, for the kind of work that he has done for Microsoft, the complete revamp the turnover, the turnaround, and, above all, whatever limited. I've heard about him, read the book that he has written about the way he shows up as a father, the resilience that he's demonstrates, and that's another thing that I have personally witnessed in you how close you are to your two sons. How you make time for your family. You're very particular about the timing that you have for your family members right. Now, what do you think was that small difference that makes all the difference? What makes up the Unadilla Satya Nadella for the kinds of Satya Nadella? What's a small difference? That makes all the difference? 11:00 That's a good one. And, yeah, that's been a couple of years back. But it must be for business reviews. I mean, I'm sure that he doesn't remember me at all. So it was one of the meetings that I was just getting into it with a T as a team review, or something like that. But I admire him a lot. I respect him a lot. I admire him a lot. And, you know, like many years I've worked with, I think, and I recently is amongst the best leaders, you know, in the world today. What sets him apart is his humility, a desire to learn, you know, what he calls a growth mindset. And one of the pivots that Microsoft is fundamentally working on over the past five, six years, is communication. It's not just the communication, it's a conversation that he would have with any team, you know, that he's kind of addressing with a large global townhall or small group of business review with, with a 10 people, it's a conversation, it's not a telling in a top down kind of monologue, putting himself on the line for what he believes. And he's built a team of high performing individuals, and then he gives them empowerment to the jobs the way they should, you know, and I think, equally important, is the ability to let go, you know, that many leaders, I mean, this, I think, was the passion. And, and obviously believe and sometimes can't let go. And I've seen Satya, you know, who lets go, you know, have an idea or his point of view, you know, as he hears in different other people seeing, you know, seeing, seeing their perspective, he's a great balance of high IQ. And almost everybody in Microsoft has with an equally strong EQ, you know, which normally is a very scarce commodity, in many leaders around the world. And I think that helps them in truly listening and understanding the ecosystem around him. I've had the fortune of working with many, many, many leaders like like Satya Adji, Ayesha, Microsoft, Accenture, and ultimately, who have similar leadership traits. And I've also, conversely, what will leaders who are full of themselves, love the sound of their own voice, use employees as commodities means to an end, in whether you're either on their side or on the outside? It's an entire mix out there, which differentiates one unit from the other. And I think it's a part of life and learning that, you know, doesn't look good or bad. It's just that they have different experiences. And I think it's about how do you adapt, cope and manage work through those experiences? 13:30 Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much, Lloyd, this is so interesting, you know, every time and I get to coaching, every time and I get into this kind of interview mode, at times, my coach starts to show up. And I have to say, just shut up right now, it's not the time to put the other person on the block right now. But I'll definitely bring that. And of course, then we'll take an other route. Right? You mentioned that one of the core capabilities of a leader is to put the right team at the right place, right. And I do understand that because I think it's one of the most easily said than done kind of task because you cannot bring the best talent and because there's so much of fear that you have to deal with yourself. You also mentioned that you've had the privilege of working with several such leaders in the companies including Microsoft, I share, GE Capital, Accenture, and now lead school, there is something that you did not mention. Now, interestingly, we are not going to poke into that because we also listened to what is not being said, without getting there. Right. One of the questions that I have for you is in the last three years, that you've been working with the startup. And now my assumption is you've already seen this to some close quarters, right? With what assumptions did you enter the startup world that got challenge for you? And what did you get to know either about the startup world or about your stuff that you're 15:00 thrilled about 15:06 that's uh, you putting on the spot, but if so, so I just, I just qualify myself, okay, first, I got 25 years of experience in large organizations three years in startups, right. So I'm, the analogy I like to give is, you know, I play tennis. So like think tennis on grass. And playing tennis on clay is very different. And I would win if I use a playing in one environment in three years of playing the other environment. So while the rules are similar, HR is HR businesses business. But the context the surface is very different. So no means am I an expert. In startups system, I'm just a student I'm learning and I think both my experience is a PDM. And I'm currently a lead has been having have really opened up, you know, my perspective, show me a different world that I did not know existed. So I think I'm very, very lucky to have what voters experiences as well. Though initial days, assumptions that have got challenged, are mostly around. First, the level of unlearning, that one we should do is huge, with equally immense relearning, that man has to, you know, as you shift from doing landmarks, you know, one thing that he after having watched so many years is kind of easy, and you come in there, you kind of, you know, share your stuff, but it's not I mean, you have to really unhook yourself from certain beliefs that you had, and in the context of how you're working with what the mission is. And of course, we learn how people who are still entrepreneurs have heavily driven and can grow the organization. That's, I think, the first thing that I wasn't, I wasn't expecting, right. Second, I think the relativity, the degree of energy needed personally, and the ability to energize in a startup. Also, relatively, I'm not, I'm not saying it's not then Samsung, but it's, it's, again, it's a higher magnitude, because the intensity at which you're working, the stakes, and the risks that you're taking are so high, that both your own energy to sustain that pressure. And, and the ability to kind of have your teams, you know, who are also believing you, like I'm believing the founder, and so on, and the founders being the board, you know, that's gonna invest in them. I think that entire element is extremely intense. And I think that again, was a intensities at a different level. And finally, on a per square foot basis, have seen people have higher egos in startups, you know, in your organization's I mean, it's, it will be part of growing up, that's in my mind, my hypothesis, I could be wrong. In terms of being thrilled, I mean, I'm really excited purpose than startups that I've worked with, serve for my country, I think often work for many multinationals, the desire to make a difference for India, for products, you know, as I like to call it is immense. So with Paytm, and looking at the financial literacy, you know, and then the financial part of making transactions down to the last last mile and the smallest of towns and now with lead, you know, where our mission is to bring affordable, high quality education to every child in India. And our short term goal is to positively impact the outcomes are 25 million students in 60,000 schools by the next four years. Imagine that, I think that mission and purpose is again, thrilling, and to see the real, the founders believe in it. Again, it's not something out there on a wall, you're kind of working towards that, which I think is again, extremely, extremely exciting. And as I think you're going to be a part of shaping truly, hopefully build to last company from close quarters, rather than, you know, being a small spoke in a whole big, which is what many, many of us do what I mean, as well. But then here you see from the ringside view, and contribute what's making it again, it's immense. The sharpness that one needs to have every day, I think is really higher, to the exploration that one needs to find a new way of doing things with limited budgets and stuff like that evolving as kind of survival instinct in you with scarce resources, but still having the desire to make a huge dent in the area of a startup. And these are all elements and understand a lot of things that I have come to my portfolio of things which make it exciting. Make it risky, even nervous, but yeah. 19:37 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I can pick up these words when you're saying that it makes it riskier, for sure. Anxiety you spoke about and of course, thrilling right? And also in the startup domain, if I, if I look at from the from a very, very far end, right, what is visible to me there are in startup as well. There are two kinds of startups. One startup is Well, you mentioned where the Eagles are really, really high, really high. And people are really aggressive, they are investing huge amounts of money in marketing. And thus, when at the end of the day, when the audits are done with the one of the big four companies, you realize that the profitability was here. And then suddenly you realize, within two days, the profitability came down here, right? Without mentioning any of the companies, of course, in the attic, or in the ed tech sector, on the country, we have lead school, and whatever limited, I've heard about lead school, from close friends who have worked with lead school, I think lead school is somebody is an organization that I don't think that invest unnecessarily on marketing, but I think they genuinely work invest on delivering value and investing on the product, right. So there are two different kinds of startups that we are talking about. Also, when you mentioned about that, on one hand, the aggression is really high. The Hustle if we use the word that is really high, but at the same time, the purpose is that we would like to make a contribution to part right to our nation to our country. Now, just going back to the combination that I just picked up one combination, the combination that you spoke about is that people are really aggressive, and the ego is really high. That could be devastating at times for the people. Right now, let me bring another spin to that. The average age and experience of leaders at the C suite level in companies like Microsoft and Accenture is comparatively more than the average age and experience of people working in startups. Now, what according to you is the best development modality required for the professional growth. And to round off what you mentioned, the ego part of it, the aggression part of it. 21:52 Right now, you know, I'm in the camp of startups right now. Okay, so, so bad for startups, right. I will just say that, you know, even the examples, it took, I mean, you know, the, I mean, my admiration for for just a startup CEO or founder as exponentially, you don't want to go over these three years just to see what they start with, you know, how small they start the vision, they have the, the intensity with which they keep moving forward, the failures that hit them again, and again, and again. And again, and again, and again, at exponential growth after that. So I want to say, and, and many of them, I mean, you know, they, I mean, I could never be a founder, I mean, I don't think I can ever be a founder, just the what it takes to follow, I don't think I have it if I just protecting myself. And so it is admirable, wherever they have reached reached any of these companies, where they die, they kind of go on, they have issues, but what they've gotten is tremendous. And I and I respect them for that. I think the element for an individual, as somebody who works for a startup is about the values, either your values in sync., what sort of I think that's what I think it's minister and again, there's no right or wrong answer. It's just about are they aligned with the company, what the company is doing, and that's where professionals coming in I think that's what I think they just need to think about. But every founder is really an inspiration in in many, many ways of kind of know, where they've gotten to, you know, in terms of you spoke about the experience level, yes, you know, you have many people relatively lesser experience, who are who are who are taking challenges at a much earlier age, what many founders who are right out of IITs, or I noticed when I'm the I'm on the board, or or or wherever, and they're leading teams, right. And large organizations, you know, you know, everybody looks up to them for for direction. So. So I think risk mistakes are also at higher energy and enthusiasm is more personal than what you would have in a large, large organization. Some of the modalities I can think of some developing this talent is, you know, maybe for them to do different roles faster, you know, once you don't have expertise, I think that again, in some ways might make you you might have easier, you might think that an easier way to get things done. I think once once you experience different parts of a startup, you might get the majority about what what it means to build a responsible business. I think staying close to the customer is extremely important because you might have an idea in your mind about what you want to do. But then the the kind of fit the fit for purpose, you know, that kind of thing with revenue building, what does the customer really need? And that second thing again, you know, can make people in startups very real about you know, what they're doing and what they're impacting. I think I've always had values as an anchor for decision making and all the companies that work and all thing that in startups as well for for high potential individuals would be, you know, large, large responsible things to, to ingrain values in their organization so that they can look at those, wherever they have a quandary to say, hey, what would this mean, you know, as Guiding Light is, again, something that I would recommend having clear goals. And I think, all starts with understanding self, you get whatever you want. First, let's get to know how you are, you know, how you proceed? What are you like, I think, understanding still using 360 and other tools, I think another way for helping them be more real about themselves. I think, eventually, having mentors, you know, to bounce off things with who they respect with trust, again, is another element I think can help individuals high potential high energy, you know, very mission aligned individuals get even better in shaping and an organization. 26:04 You know, since you, since you are talking about knowing yourself, and that was one of the questions. Let me just pull that question back and bring it here, plug it here. In your journey, your professional journey? What are you getting to know about yourself? Especially the transition that you have taken, which is not at all an easy transition? I think 26:31 it's a very concerted cut out. decision for me, the options that always come in options are always there to go back to the kind of companies I've worked with. And I, and of course, at a time, you're frustrated saying, Hey, you don't want to get this. I mean, why am I order explain this? Or, but then, you know, I think that again, element again, I Rajeev point about judging, you know, it's not about it's about saying, hey, you've taken a conscious decision. And the more I'm in a learner mode, and I truly am, you know, I truly believe I'm never mode. I think it's fascinating, it's fascinating to see how I thought things would happen, things will happen this way, how I find a different way of making this happen, but things have to happen. And that's, that's my role, right? make things happen. You know, the haha the failures come in? And how do you adapt to those failures as the happiness? Well, I think the main element is, can you stay in that growth mindset? Waiting is a very, very big term. implications to it, but stay a learner. Because you really don't know how to let don't have any, any ambiguity about, you know, what I come with, it doesn't matter. And in that sense, how can you make a difference? How can you make an impact? How can you maximize your own potential and the potentials of people around you, I think that's what's I think, keeps me going. And, of course, the mission for what you joined for, again, that, again, is something that keeps you excited. So I guess that purpose, the sense of purpose, and a sense of personal growth, and that way, in whatever small way you can contribute towards making an organization that has got massive aspirations, hopefully get to where it wants to get to, is what I think is what I anchor myself to, you know, with different things that happen every day, 28:30 God got it. So I'm not surprised when you're talking about being open being having a growth mindset, being a learner through and throughout, I remember when you were in that transition, I remember one of our conversations, and you said gotta before I take any lunch, right now I'm on a spree and I'm talking to several leaders from startup and once I have a better understanding, only then I will take a decision I remember that conversation very, very clearly very vividly. Right now you mentioned that one of the traits that you have assimilated in yourself and all this journey is that any decision that you make is based on values. So learning resilience, growth mindset, are the values which have been driving your decision what's the big know that you will not compromise 29:20 anything principles, I mean, you know, principles respect for the individual integrity in terms of you know, of what we say and what we do doesn't it doesn't mean Financial Integrity just mean integrity of what we say and do you know the we kind of stand stand true to what what we have I think I think at the core of it is the core principles. I mean, I don't I mean a company can go bankrupt but still kind of still kind of you know, figure a way out of of coming out of it as it's gonna be like the financial element. challenges come everywhere. I think it's about poor employee respect. I spoke about employees should not be treated like commodities or employee astronomically like means to an end. Of course, there's performance. Of course, there's gonna be differentiation. Not everybody is built equal. But I think staying true to, you know, what you commit to an employee, being authentic about, you know, what, what do you want to accomplish as a leader, and, of course, financially, you know, being having a honest, you know, following the rules of the land, in terms of, you know, how we how we see the results, and I think those are 314 that I think are important for me, having a purpose, again, is something that excites me, but I think these key four things if they are actually no knows where, where it's not worth it, it's just not worth it, no matter what the what the what the reward at the end of it. 30:42 Yeah. So now I'll be able to connect several dots in my conversation with what is being said, what is not being said and what is said and then what is reset? Right. I will not get into that. I don't want to clarify those assumptions. However, let's take one step forward here, Rohit, Rohit, what do you think? What are the qualities required to stay relevant in today's world? And specifically, we are talking about technology and the startup world? 31:10 I think I'll take a punt. I mean, relevance to me, again, is the how right? I mean, how, how does one stay kind of relevant? In the context, I think we've got about eight values that lead I think I'll talk about those. And you will come through with this debate inside and I agree with each one of them, and I'll just rattle them off from top of my head. First, I think I've mentioned a few times, I think I, I've seen the k/transformation on Microsoft, you know, from where it was where it is, I think growth mindset has been one of the chief key levers there. So I think that's something for individuals to have, you know, in, in today's world, you know, definitely, I think courage with empathy, I think courage is important. You got to speak your mind, you got to get your ideas through, if you don't communicate, no change will happen. But doing that with empathy, you know, for those around you, you know, it's not just your way or the highway, you know, but I think taking others along with you, again, is the second thing that I would say is important, I think excellence with with velocity, we've got to do the right things, you got to do things really fast. But 32:16 excellence with velocity with velocity? 32:19 Yeah. So it's about not that the thing of perfection striving for perfection, it's good to strive for perfection, but it's about how do we do that fast? And if that means it's 80%? Perfect. You know, can I move on with that and correct the balance? 20%? You know, as I go along with it, because speed is equally important, as as perfection, and what's the right balance? You know, with that? I think customer centricity, you know, knowing the customer, having the customer the center of like, never forgetting that, you know, it is what, what function Am I in? Or what part of the business that we have? What is this impacting the customer? And how many levels or even the customer, you know, am I working in? Again, it's, I think it's something that keeps you real and keeps, you know, keeps you grounded. I think, what do you call being the cause, you know, taking personal responsibility to achieve your goals. It's not like, it's that person's job. I've done my stuff. Now the board is in that code. But I think being the cause, at least is about taking personal responsibility to achieve our goals. Integrity is about honoring our word. I mean, of course, the code integrity is there, but it's about how do I honor my word, living the mission? And I think finally, people, you know, we are a tribe, I think, working not as an individual, but working as a team and taking everybody together. It's not about my function and your function and function. It's about how do we work together, and we stand for each other, especially in the startup where you're still evolving your culture, you're still evolving. You know, your mission is still in its formative stage. I think people people connect people focus is extremely important. 33:52 Thank you. Thank you so much for bringing that again. In all my conversations, I think something that's a common thread which is emerging is how well you take care of your people. You know, I'm sure Rohit in your life, you have experienced several ups and downs. 34:09 Which is being human. Also, 34:14 you are a certified coach. You have been a practicing coach, you have been on both sides of coaching. Just curious what role has coaching played in your life to keep yourself stable because I've always seen you very grounded and very stable, never super excited. And I've never seen you in 34:35 not so good mood. 34:36 So what's the secret behind that? 34:40 I think I think it's a village girl. It's a village that gets you to where you are. You know, I think I realized that very early on my life. My family, you know, cheering for me all the time. My my I think I've survived some of the best managers in the world. I will not change my life for anybody out there because of the experiences I've had. Add to the kind of videos that I worked with the people who've taking interest. You know, I think of myself right from the first element when I was getting rejected every group discussion and XLR. I was looking for a job too when Democrats took a punt on me and trying to butter me and say, Hey, John, I didn't go in Asia, and I don't my first job and, you know, everywhere from the boardroom to extended interview that I was actually plugged in. But I think how my family stayed with me as I've traveled all over the world, my team, my team members, I think I've always prided myself. And I've been lucky that I've always wanted to hire people better than me and I have hired to be better than me. I think how they have been. They've been vested, you know, in success of the company. And that normally is my success and their successes. Well, you know, and mentors, I have mentors around me as well. So I think being grounded is I mean, what do you call grounded for me as reality that I couldn't have done this myself by a mile? In the forest of imagination is not for people who kind of know stood by me, standing by me as I'm. 36:11 Yeah. And I think you have also stood by people. I mean, at least I can talk about it. Right from, from day one, when I started my journey, the first time when I was on the pitch. And I, as I was mentioning, that I could not hold my tears. And then there you were, in saying, hey, got it happens. Let's move on. So and what do you think? What role can coaching play in the startup ecosystem that you are selling in right now? 36:38 I think coaching circles in any sector, startup is no different. In terms of the context, I think it becomes more important than maybe in some other context is the pressures of work are very high. But there's tremendous power and responsibility at a much earlier age. With much of the experience, the desire to make a huge difference, with no easy answers on how to get there. And we're telling you no top down is rather than seeking to understand becomes a norm in getting speed to work. I think all these ingredients in any sector started definitely as, as elements of this building large companies, many companies also have element of this are good context to accelerate, coaching at work. And I do believe that I think, I think, currently and even the future current and future, I think, managers are leaders who are conscious about their leadership styles or are in addition to our decision making and shaping an organization are equally open to inclusion, inclusion, diversity, which which again, in one way is coaching as well, you know, when you're when you're trying to maximize one's one potential and organization, I think those kinds of organizations and those kind of leaders is what will people want to work for? And those of us who make a difference, you know, to the organization? 38:16 Across the board. 38:19 So just the last question from my end, What is the essence of life for 38:24 you?So I think we all have meaning each one of us has unique strengths and weaknesses. I think maximizing your potential, and trying to the same with those around you is one important sense. You know, one of my managers in Accenture, you know, what would say, you know, something like, lift as you fly, you know, as you pick wings, and as you kind of, you know, raise pace to new heights, how do you lift others? Along with you, you know, so that that will these will involve taking risks would involve putting yourself out of out of your comfort zone, being comfortable with what you accomplish, and hopefully you not have any regrets at the end of it also. So Ellen Chu, who was our global CHR O for Accenture, she would say this and I think that really caught my attention as and then she she really believes in that and she does that as well. So I think that part of maximizing your own potential and impacting others around you positively, with having no regrets. And taking risks, I think is one thing that struck me as what is what could be life's like sense otherwise. 39:50 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing and the love the candid conversation that we had
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