Jason Fladlien

The Frames of Persuasion:Crafting Arguments for Agreement and Disagreement

The Frames of Persuasion:Crafting Arguments for Agreement and Disagreement

Jason Fladlien

Chief Strategy Officer
Rapid Crush, Inc.

Jason Fladlien

Jason Fladlien is known as the quarter billion dollar webinar man. His pitch webinars have set records in the information, coaching, affiliate, and software space. He draws upon his eclectic background for inspiration, from being a Hare Krsna monk and a rapper born and raised in the small town of Muscatine, Iowa.

Jason has risen to the top of several industries including information products, software, coaching, consulting, speaking and eCommerce.

Jason is often called in by 7, 8 and even 9-figure companies to help them with their marketing. To date, he is the only marketer Zoom specifically brought in to help its own users with webinars.

These days Jason spends much of his focus on Strategic Positioning – whereas other marketers try to figure out the best recipes and how to be the best chef, Jason figures out how to get the best ingredients in place first. The best victories in business are won by knowing where and when to play.

Through his company, Rapid Crush, Inc., Jason has pioneered many of the best marketing practices you see used on the web today.

As a client put it: “Jason makes millionaires.”

Take home these learnings:

1.What are the dangers of becoming too comfortable with our strengths?
2.How to agree or disagree, and still build stronger relations?
3.How to approach communication and persuasion to achieve better outcomes?
4.How to disagree in a coaching or sales situation?

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Episode Transcript:

00:02 Jason, thank you so much. Such a pleasure having you here. I didn't expect that one day, I would get lucky. And I would get an opportunity to speak to you. Thank you. 00:13 You're most welcome. It's a pleasure. 00:17 I've been reading this book for quite some time. Jason. It says a one to many the secrets to webinars success. I'll definitely come to this. But very curious. You have kept something on your table on the left hand side. What is that? Yeah. 00:33 Yeah, ball around g right. So the childhood pastimes with him and Krishna when they decide to appear 5000 years ago, and they're the butter thief's so the mischievious pneus of them and their childhood pastimes of of stealing the butter just was we were talking before the podcast here is I have a vise Nava is what I would be considered from from a spiritual perspective. And that's just worshipper of Krishna. And so this is a very appropriate title for a podcast with the word monk in it, because it really what changed my life. And it's actually we can break it down because it led me into doing what I do in business is when I was about 20 years old, was just in the worst place, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and had a lot of childhood trauma, I had these panic attacks, I was afraid to leave the house. And then I got my hands on the Bhagavad Gita by Srila, Prabhupada. And it's the way that it was introduced. To me, it said something along the lines of, you know, a sane individual, if he sees something and tries it and gets a benefit, he'll continue with it. And I said, Okay, that makes sense to me. So I started chanting. And I started following some of the Vedic principles. And I started to see some relief. And so it was, it was really nice for me. And then I had a really strong practice. And then I kind of got pulled back into this material world, if you will, I don't know if it's my dharma, or what have you that I had to like, Okay, I want to build this business or whatever. So I kind of lost the practice. Getting it back again, which is really nice. But this is a statute and remind me of that. And this used to be a boy, Krishna here, he left. And so as symbolic to me. So I'm trying to get him back. And so this is a reminder. So you know, it helps me to stay grounded in what's important, want to have an impact when I help people and want to connect with them. And I feel like that's kind of the purpose of what I'm supposed to do here. But it's not just to unnecessarily only material and but yeah, this is saved my life. And so I try to have that spirit around me. So you know, you're the first person since I put this on the table here, that's actually asked me about it. 03:01 And thank you. Now, I was really intrigued and curious, and that's the reason I asked you. I thought it's Krishna or it's been around. And I didn't expect that. You know, in fact, it says, but just serendipity, Jason, that in the year 2012, I got an opportunity to interview Radha nath Swamiji when he wrote this book called The journey home. And in that interaction, I asked whether or not Swamiji that in your book, The Journey Home, you mentioned about calling, you mentioned about purpose? How can one find his or her calling? And I asked her not Swamiji that rather not Swamiji I'm like a small child till in my nappies. I don't know how to find the water bottle for myself, I don't know how to find the milk bottle milk bottle for myself and you are talking about finding your calling. Then, rather not Swamiji who he is that epidemic of love and kindness and peace. In his childlike voice, he looked at me and he said, You know what? Golf, you have already initiated your journey. I said, What does that mean? He said, You know what? You said? How can I find my calling? By asking the right question. You have already initiated yourself in that journey. Today, if I look back at the journey began with that question. Who am I? What's my calling? What's the nature of reality? How can they actually experience peace and happiness every moment? Why am I here? Those questions started them. And today also I continue to be with these questions. Jason, thank you so much for sharing this part of your life, I was not expecting this trust. 05:12 Jason, every time that I've spoken to you,[gap less] I find you speaking like a monk. I find you speaking like a child with so much of curiosity. I find you speaking like a coach. And yet, you call yourself a webinar expert. In fact, you have written this book, international best selling author, one to many the secrets to webinars success. Just curious. How did you identify your gifts and your superpower? Why did you choose to go ahead with this identity? If I may have the Yeah, I? 05:56 It kind of was forced upon me. It's a great question. I started doing webinars. And to be specific, the webinars that we're talking about here are sales webinars, where from an advertising perspective, I always enjoyed the concept of them before I even did them, I suppose to advertising is annoying, it's disruptive, you hope that you make up for the annoyance with the product if they buy it. And I liked the webinar model because it allows you to lead with value first. So the advertising was valuable in and of itself. And so that was always interesting to me. I said, there's something here that that connects with me that makes me feel good about marketing. And in 2008, nobody really did webinars, nobody knew how to do them. There wasn't a book, like the book that I wrote, there wasn't a guide. The people that were doing them were either platforms, sellers, so they would speak in front of live audiences and sell that way. And then they would try to like force that into the webinar. Or they were these teleseminar guys, because a lot of people were selling the phone, believe it or not back then and conference calls. It's so funny how the world's changed. And so they would take that same technique and try to like pigeon hole, cram it into a webinar, nobody was making it holistically from the ground up. And I had the benefit of being brand new, I didn't have any experience, I never had spoken on a stage and never done a teleseminar before, I'd barely had any success at a small amount of success, with a little bit of knowledge selling really cheap products, on very specific topics. But I saw something there. So I started doing webinars, fanatically constantly in all sorts of permutations, like, the first webinar that I ever did was a four and a half hour training, where I just taught, I sent I had a small customer base back then maybe two 3000 customers at most. And I said, I want to try this out, I'm gonna do a new product live on this webinar, if you show up, I'll give it to you for free. If not, you can buy it from me later. And I think I had 12 people show up to that webinar. It was it was a small amount of people. But I said I got an audience. Let me see what I can do with it. And I trained for four and a half hours, and it was a smash hit. So that was the first time I used the webinar. The second time was I said, Hey, I worked out really well the first time I did a webinar training. So I'm going to do a series of them now. So this product I have over here, which teaches like an eight step process, I'm just going to turn each step into a week and I'm going to do a two hour webinar on it. Do you want to join and I think I sold that product for like $200, which was the highest price product I've ever sold at the time before that was like a $37 product was I think the highest. And that was a hit. So I had eight more webinars that I could do after that, that I practised on and then the third time finally it was like I was saying, hey, if this works good to deliver the webinars, what better way to sell a series of webinars than with a free webinar. So then I did a webinar was like, I trained on a topic and I said, if you enjoyed this, I got eight more just like this, you can pay 200 bucks for him or yen, and people were in. And so over time, I was using it from a variety of different angles. And then I started developing the methodology, the framework, the systems. And nobody wanted to learn this stuff worth. I just did it. So I use the webinar to market other things. Like we had a SaaS company when we started rapid crush in 2011. So in 2008 to 2010, I essentially rolled rolled solo, so information products and coaching programmes, and I wanted to sell software. So I started a business with with my business partner Wilson Mattis. And here we are, you know, nearly 13 years later working together still just as as close as we've ever been still working on things amazing. And so I started selling that and we started learning how to sell other things on webinars. And over time, occasionally somebody would pull me in and say, Hey, listen, you want to do this webinar or you want to teach people how to do webinars like now nobody wants to learn that stuff. They go Come on, try it so I try it. Nobody did want to learn this stuff. In 2011 12, or 13. And then slowly but surely over time, the webinars that I were that I was doing became very legendary. Like we were setting records in different industries and spaces with the webinars. And we were proving it in the marketplace, the superiority of a webinar over other types of marketing vehicles, which were more popular, and that people liked to use more and that there was more around training on those things. And then, over time, people started to wake up and realise the power of webinars. And by then I had solidified myself, not from a marketing perspective, not from a hype perspective, but from actual results, every all roads pointed to me, and that none of this was deliberate. And I didn't want to be branded as the webinar guy. But the marketplace kind of forced it on me. And then I fought it for years. And then I just finally embraced it. Because I just realised as if this was the door, that opens me up to the world. I'll take it, and then I can go from there. And so this is how I've been okay with being labelled and branded as the webinar guy. And I said, I just accept it. And I say, Cool, this is what we're gonna do. I'll get you in the door, you read my book. And then you'll say, Hold on a second here, the webinars just the outcome of a lot of strategic thought, and a lot of positioning expertise, and a lot of creative problem solving. Right? And then I'm like, Okay, now I got you. 11:31 Just curious. Coming back to the book that you're speaking about JSON one to many. If I go to this book, I personally feel this book is on persuasion. This book is on changing beliefs, the book is on Ericksonian principles. This book is on how to make and set goals for yourself and go for them and look at the challenges that might come in your way. This book is beyond webinars, at least the way I have perceived webinars just curious, where do you draw your inspiration from? Because in this book, you have used different modalities be the modality of neuroscience, the intimate modality of hypnosis conversations, be the modality of persuasion? Where do you draw your inspiration from? 12:19 That's a great question. So I'll tell you how I figured out these different modalities was I, the first year I started doing webinars, I by a stroke of luck, I stumbled upon this concept where I was on a webinar one day and there was like, 50 people on and I'd ran into slides. But these people seem engaged. Some of them did, they were in the chat, they were going back and forth. And I say, These people seem qualified. They seem like good people to buy this product. When I created this product, I kind of had these types of people in mind. And they're not buying it. But they keep asking questions what's going on here, because I know that these people should own this product that is going to help them more than not owning it the money that they keep in their pocket and going to serve them as well as exchanging it for this product. I just knew it right. So I said, What do I need to say to help this person understand if they should make a decision on this or not. And then I also thought economically, you know, if I was selling a $300 product back then, and it took me an hour to pick up another cell, it's 300 bucks an hour. Back then that was a lot of money for me. So I went for a full hour with a room of like 50 people a virtual room or on a webinar, right? And I sold two. And I said, Hmm, I wonder if I could go another hour and maybe pick up another one. And this isn't just to make money, right? To me, this is an act of service is to help somebody make a decision, a yes or no decision, either one I'm fine with. But a lot of people get stuck in indecision, and that's not okay with me. So I went another hour. And I picked up another cell. And I thought, You know what, this is awesome. I'm making extra money I wouldn't otherwise make it's manual labour, certainly. And it's hard work. But it feels good. And I feel like I'm of service. And so I did that for like a year straight. Every webinar would be like a four hour webinar, it'd be an hour and a half of formal structural presentation. And then like two and a half hours of, can I help this person make a decision that would be in their best interest, whether it's a no decision or a yes decision. And I made a lot of money doing that. What I didn't realise is I started developing techniques that I would later codify and solidify, that became the standard techniques that when people discovered me, they're like, Oh, this is this is top shelf persuasion. Now, what would happen was in between these webinars, or if I would run into an encounter, where I'm like, I can't get through to this person, what's going on here? Like there's some sort of facade that I can't get past. And so I've reached into my toolkit of persuasion tools, and maybe we had two or three or four at the time, and they weren't sufficient. So I'd say Okay, I gotta figure out a new tool. So I would go research, I'd say where's a tool that that I can find and study and then assimilate. The beautiful thing was as I take the tool used over here and figure out a way to adjust it, to use it on a webinar, so like we taught conversational hypnosis, you know, aka Ericksonian, hypnosis that was done in a therapeutic setting. So I had to say, Okay, this is what's working in a therapeutic setting, how do we adjust this and morph it into something that could be used in a sales setting or in a coaching setting. And I had, I had the knack to do that I had the ingenuity of doing it. And I could test it immediately on a live audience within a day or two, and then go back and adjust it and say, Okay, here's what worked, here's what didn't work. And over the next year or two, I developed this very big toolkit, where I'm like a mental Smith. Now, if this first way doesn't work, I'll try the second way. If the second way doesn't work, I'll try the third way, I'll try the fourth way, I'll try the fifth way. And that's where I really developed a lot of these, these models, which ultimately comes down to changing a limiting belief. If somebody believes they're going to fail, no, no instruction, or no system or no product, even if it's the very best product is going to convince them otherwise, it's less about what they know, it's more about how they feel about themselves. And so you can give the person the best solution in the world. But if they have an impoverished identity, of their own capabilities to use that system, you will lose them, you they won't buy, or if they do buy, they won't win, because they will find ways to act that are consistent with the identity. And if the identity is I'm not sufficient, then they're going to find ways to make that true. So in a sales situation, in a coaching situation, I started to work on ways in which I could either improve that identity, or I could make the identity irrelevant. And in a variety of other ways, too. So I started working on this, I'm like, oh, there's belief patterns that are that are happening here. Why does it belief pattern form? What can I do about it? And I started learning all sorts of stuff from all a variety of different sources, and then assimilating them and to the specific use case of webinars. And a man. I mean, I've gotten so much inspiration for so many places. 17:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's double click on that, you know, you mentioned about that the money that you're keeping in your pocket can serve you only as much that one point, you also spoke about that when you are selling something on webinar. I personally believe that people buy your time. And they don't value that unless they buy something that they can touch anything tangible. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges in service business. However, I'm what I'm more interested in, is the persuasion skills that you have accumulated in all these years. So you mentioned that I had 123, and four in my kitty, and I'd realised that What's stopping me to get through this person, and then I would go back home, do my study, come back and try and experiment and make an attempt? Tell me if you can just help us understand what are the different ways with which you can actually persuade others? That is the first question. Yep. Let's look at that. Let that be the second question. The first question is, what do you think? What are the possible challenges? That a person with his or her belief system or identity, and unless we address that will not be able to persuade the person? So these two questions over to you? 18:23 Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question. What I've discovered is agreement frames are better than disagreement frames. And let me elaborate on this. So this will be this will be an aha for a lot of people in and of itself. And so if somebody comes to you and say, I can't do it, as a coach, let's say, let's just use it from that perspective. They say I can't do it, the natural reaction is to do what what is a normal person say to somebody say, I can't do this, you would say to them, 18:52 you can do it. You can write motivational speakers. 18:56 Yeah. So you're in a disagreement frame there, you have mismatched them. You are literally out of report from the get go. And that's what everybody does. Somebody says I can't afford it. Yes, you can afford it. Somebody says it cost too much. It doesn't cost that much. Somebody says I don't have enough time. Yes, you do have enough time, right. All kinds of communication I see on a daily basis. Almost all of them come from this disagreement frame. Especially when we're doing persuasion. You know, in the parent, persuading the child or the child persuading the parent more often is the case these days. These are disagreement frames. Now there's usefulness in the disagreement frame, and there's times I'm using it, but the default go to is an agreement frame. Somebody says I can't do it. You say, Yeah, you're right. You can't do it with the tools you currently have. But what if you had new tools? So this is technically called a partial agreement frame. I'm agreeing with their statement, but then I'm changing the context and perimeters and wishes. that can be applied right? They'll say I can't afford it. I'm like, You're right, you can afford it. But the alternative is even more costly. So you can afford either choice not buying it or buying it. Since you can't afford either one. Which one would you want to do anyway? Regardless of whether you could afford it or not? Well, I'd want to do this, okay? Can we figure out a way, where affording it is not is no longer a big deal? Like they're putting the emphasis on cost, not the emphasis on value. So I agree with them, they can't afford it. But then I say, well, we got to figure out a way to get it anyway. Because the alternative is even worse, if you can't afford this, you certainly can't afford the cost of not doing this. Let me say, Okay, I'll take a look at that. Right. And so this is a powerful communication model. If somebody disagrees with with me, I don't want them to I want to agree with them, actually. So I'll say to people on webinars, I will say to them, literally, I'll say you probably don't believe me, you probably think I made these testimonials up, you probably think that I have misrepresented the opportunity as something other than it is and you think that I'm here deliberately lying to you just to get money out of your pocket? Is it that you don't believe me? Or is it something else, maybe it's that you don't believe yourself, and then I'll go down that route, if I have to write, but I will acknowledge all the all of the scepticism, all of the problems up front. And now I'm in an agreement frame, by literally agreeing with them, if they think that I'm lying to them or agreeing with them, yeah, I want your money. They say Oh, you just want my money, right? I do want your money. Because if you give me your money, I have more responsibility over your outcome. If you give your money to somebody else, I don't know how they're going to treat you. And if you don't give your money to anybody, you're left to your own devices, and you've been down that road. 21:42 Yeah, as you mentioned, the money that you have in your pocket is only going to serve you as much. And as I'm just listening to you, Jason. And it reminds me of a question in the conversation. The question is, who is holding the frame, whosoever is holding the frame is going to drive the conversation. And as you're mentioning, if you are already in the disagreement mode, the rapport is out of the box Anyways, now you put a lot of effort to bring back the rapport, and then drive the conversation. 22:12 That That's right. And there's times and places for disagreement frames, the way I always looked at it is here's where I got some big insight into persuasion as we were running a campaign in 2015. And this was the biggest product on the market at the time, and there was 1000s of affiliates promoting the exact same product. So the way that this work this business works is a vendor creates a product is a $5,000 product, and they say, Listen, if you refer a sale to me, so I'll give you an affiliate link, it'll be tracked to you, if anybody clicks on it and buys it, I'll give you 50% of the sale. So every affiliates making $2,500 If they can refer somebody and that person becomes a customer, there's 1000 Plus affiliates competing over the sales in this marketplace. And this time, because there was a lot of money to be made, because a lot of people were buying these products really good product. And and I would sit there and I would say if they're on 50 other affiliates, email lists, and all these other affiliates have been attempting to persuade them and haven't sold them yet. What are the prospects not hearing that they need to hear in order to make a decision? What are they missing out on and what you discovered when you do these analysis is all the other affiliates are basically saying the same thing. They're using different synonyms, but they're saying the same stuff. So I'm like, That ain't gonna cut it. I got what is not being said that should be said I'd obsess over that, I think over that. And in that launch, we sold and it's still the record of this day, $9.8 million in eight days of this product in every other affiliate combined sold, like 15 million. So we were 40% of the sales, we had beat second place in that contest by $7 million. That's how far ahead we were from the rest of the pack. And it came down to that fundamental question is what's not being said that needs to be said that could change everything. And so if you look at the disagreement frame, everybody uses that. So even if it was useful as a technique, which sometimes it is, if it's already been heard in that person hasn't changed their behaviour, saying it again is unlikely to make a difference. repeating something over and over again, is a poor strategy for conversion. Yeah, I gotta say what what needs to be said that isn't being said. Yeah, yeah. And that's where that's when the frame now let's talk about the frame. Right. So let's first define what a frame is, like, in a literal sense of frame would be around a picture. Like if you look at a Mona Lisa, my friend Joe Weldon, who's like a national speaker Association Hall of Fame. He's in the Hall of Fame over there. He's been doing speaking for 40 or 50 years he gives us example he says, if we put duct tape around the Mona Lisa, it would desperately cheap and yeah, we would cheapen the experience of let me 24:50 just let me just do it. I'm so sorry. But I would like to read what he has written about you. He says Jason isn't good or even great at webinars. He is World Glass, extraordinary and truly amazing. For my very first webinar, Jason generated more sales and more money than I have for all the webinars I've done. So that's Joel Weldon. And as the Hall of Fame speaker. 25:13 That's crazy, right? I mean, Josie is 80 plus years old. He's still out there. He's one of the most beautiful human beings I've met in this business. But yeah, your to your point is, is, you know, in Joel says that about the frame. And I love that as an example, because the context in which the information of the communication is centred around, it's in a box, and that box is your frame. So if you come from the position of like, when you said frame control, and we're getting a little bit esoteric, or so hopefully, everybody's not like, what kind of space language are they speaking, right. But with frame controls, essentially, in any conversation, somebody controls the frame, where they are the one that dictates where the conversation goes. And persuasive individuals are great at controlling frames, whether they're individual or in groups. And that's what I like about a webinars, it's on my agenda, it's my slides, I'm kind of determining where it goes. Now in interaction, so it's easy to lose a frame if you're not careful. So if somebody says to you a cost too much, and you get defensive, you've lost the frame, essentially, because they're like, That person doesn't feel very confident in what they're doing. Maybe either I can get a deal from them, or, you know, I don't want to do business with them. Because they don't seem to be in control of things, they don't seem to be the one that I want to look to, like, if when when a surgeon comes into the room to do brain surgery, they have the ultimate frame. Because not only are they dressed apart, they're in an environment that they control, not you, and they have all the knowledge and you have none of the knowledge, right. That's a very powerful frame. And so when I'm working with customers, I have to fight their frame. And their frame is this, this is the default frame of the human condition, safety first, survive at all cost, survive at the cost of happiness. That is how we're programmed evolutionarily, we will sacrifice our own happiness just to draw another breath. And we have to fight and overcome that programming if we're going to have progress. And so this is why the people that are most qualified for your products, don't buy them. Because they're like, damn, I could change and I don't know what changes like even positive changes, and an as an unknown, and an unknown is scary, I gotta spend money, and I got to spend time to make this change, you know what the safest thing to do nothing, not a single thing, in the short term, that that's preservation, that safety, it costs nothing, no energy. But if you run that programme out for several weeks, months and years, doing nothing is the most disastrous thing that a person can do. So their framework coming in and most and especially in mass, is I am cautious, I am conservative to a fault where it will eventually harm me. And if I buy into that frame, and I allow them to operate that at that lower frequency beyond the lower capacity of potential that they have within them, I am not serving them. And so how do I get them to operate at a higher frequency, and so I have to help them, but I also have to attain that authority. So they say, Listen, even if I don't trust myself to make this decision, I trust him. And that's good enough. And if they know you care, and they know where you're coming from, that goes a long way. But you have to show them that in this particular situation. In this particular context, I know what I'm doing. And I am confident that if we can decide if this makes sense for you or not, then if it does make sense for you, I'm confident that this will be a better deal for you than doing nothing or buying something from somebody else. And if I conclude at the end, that you're not a good fit for this, I don't want you to buy from me, because that doesn't help me. And it doesn't help you. And so we're always on this quest to determine who is the best person for my product. And then once I discover them, it's not enough just to put the product in front of them. The best customers you'll ever have are the ones that are going to take the hardest amount of time to unlock. That's the 80% of the market. Everybody else misses. If we operated under the same premise of every other affiliate during that promotion, we might have got a million dollars, we might have been pretty good. We would have been at the top, no doubt about it, because we're good at what we do, right? But we wouldn't have got the other 7 million that everybody else missed. Because we went past the easy ones. We went past the low hanging fruit, right? And we went and we were able to break through to the customers that were initially hyper resistant because they were resistant not because they didn't want it. They were resistant because they knew that they needed it. But they were afraid of the change. They were afraid of a commitment and a different programme than the programme they were currently running and we got to work with them on that. And that's that's why when you and I talk you're like yeah, you do a lot of coaching even though I'm selling it's prime primarily coaching. I'm helping somebody get out of their own way. So they can make that positive change that they seek. 30:05 You know what last seven minutes was a masterclass on translation. We started from agreement and the disagreement and then we spoke about frames, whosoever is holding the frame is driving the conversation and when you spoke about when you are interacting with people just look at where they're coming from. And based on that, we need to look at what is not being said that needs to be said in this conversation. Just curious. Jason, how can we apply the same principles? When you are leading a team in an organisation, we do a lot of work with leaders. In fact, this webinar is heard by a few of the best leaders in the country in the world. On this platform, we have got vice presidents, we have got the CEOs of the organisation, they've got the entrepreneurs, and the founders who have shared their wisdom and their insights. Just curious, the principles of persuasion that you're sharing? How can I apply them? In my own life as a leader, when I'm leading the team, in the world of disruption? 31:11 That's a great question. So my expertise is mostly in leading markets, leading small individual teams, I recognise the concept of it, I don't do it, I have a business partner will and he leads a team. So sometimes the best part about leadership is recognising the weakness and finding somebody else who has the strength to take care of it for you. So that's one of the ways to do it. But these, it's the same principles applied, first of all, you got to have a knack for it. Since I'm a highly creative type, I do my best work in solitary alone, in my own head, working these models out. And so so the disadvantage of that because everything has an advantage, and everything has a disadvantage, every strength is a weakness, it, you know, every strength, there's a weakness in it and every weakness, there's a strength in that. And we might be able to talk about that here in a little bit. And so I realised that I lose the edge that I have, which is the best contribution that I can give to myself, my team and to humanity by being very hands on with a team, but I realised the importance of it. So I find a creative way in which to make sure that that happens. And then I have my business partner will, who takes care of all that. So Will and I will work together heavily. And then he will go and he will bring it to the team, when Him and I are aligned, because he sees my back, he has my back, I have his back, he sees my blind spots, I see his blind spots. And we can make a more holistic determination. But ultimately, whether you're leading a market or leading a team, what you got to have is disruption, you got to have something that will fundamentally shift an industry something that when people aren't encountering it, they can never go back to the old way of doing things, you want to break something in a way that it can't be put back together again, you want to break it in a positive way. So whatever, whatever the the thing is that you're selling, whatever the thing is that you're trying to put out there to change the world, it better be so compelling that people will drop everything else that they have in order to be engaged in it. And I think that's, that is that takes care of a lot of the tactical stuff. Otherwise, you'd have to do if people just wake up in the morning here, here's a good way of thinking, I've been thinking about this a lot lately golf, which is the curse of information. Now people have learned all this neuroscience of like, if you want to get up early in the morning, here's the things you need to do. And then they have all these scientific studies to back and they're all legitimate, they're all valid and they're like, Okay, you know, you don't want to drink out coffee until after 90 minutes awaken. You want to get sunlight in your eyes first thing in the morning, and you start to run down this list of rituals that looks like somebody with OCD, that they would run a list of rituals in order to to take care of their their obsession. This is their compulsion, if you will. And I'm like, You know what, that's all valuable. But if you have this, this burning desire within you to do something that's in your purpose, you get out of bed automatically. You don't need to worry about filtering blue lights and you don't need to necessarily do saunas and cold plunges and all these alarms, right? Yeah, you don't wake up. It wakes you up, right? You don't get out of bed, it pulls you out of bed, and then all of those other things there are just inconsequential. You should consider using them if they help get you a little bit more out of it. But there's fundamentally the bigger picture is missing. So if you want to lead have something so compelling that to people they can't stop using it they have to they are compelled to to be involved in it because that is that becomes their life purpose. So make your life purpose somebody else's life purpose play big. 34:48 I just love it. One of the past presidents of the country. Late honourable Mr. Abdul Kalam, Ji said you don't dream while you're sleeping, your dreams don't let you sleep. And as I often share with people, people are never lazy. It's the it's the intensity in their dreams, which is very down, regulate the energy up, regulate the intensity of their dreams up, and you will find them very active in the game. 35:20 Just curious, Jason, you use this sentence about strengths and weaknesses. When you said that every strength is a weakness, and every weakness is a strength. Tell me more about that. 35:36 Now, there's so many layers to that. So on like a superficial tactical level that kind of sells over on a coaching level. Somebody says, you know, Jason, I'm a procrastinator I say, fantastic. So first of all, it's an agreement frame. Right? Fantastic. Let's procrastinate on your excuses. Like, what do you mean? Like, well, if you're good at procrastination, let's put it to work. There's utility there. So if somebody says I'm an imposter, I would awesome just let's be an imposter to lesser thinking, right? Let's be an imposter. To your limitations you don't? How do you know for certain? How are you so confident in your limitations? If you're willing to doubt your capabilities? aren't you willing to doubt even your beliefs of your own insignificance and they're like, Okay, I get it. So, I the communication level, I always see anything as being useful. And so within weakness, there is massive strength, I was terrible at communication, I was the kind of kid or if I was walking down the street and you were walking, on the other side, I would cross the street. So we didn't have to make eye contact with each other and maybe have to say hi to each other. I was that timid, I was that shy was that afraid. And so I had to study basic communication just to appear to be a normal human being. So that was initially a huge weakness for me. But because I had to go deeper than everybody else had to go, it became a massive strength for me, I had to work hard to get what other people got naturally. So if they got it naturally, they weren't really motivated to do much with it. Because I had to earn it and squeeze every ounce out of it, I could not only could I appreciate it, but those became very valuable building blocks that could compound and add up over time. On the other side of things. So too, we see this in organisations is they get really good at one thing, and then they get stuck on that one thing. And then when the world changes as it will, they become obsolete. And so we have to continually realise that our strengths, if we lead them will eventually imprison us. And that's why we always have to be working on new skills, we always have to be like a child, learning something new for the first time, we can't lose that curiosity. And we can't lose that edge that got us there in the first place. Because you had to work really hard to get there. But then once you get there, this weird phenomenon occurs, you barely work and then all this money comes to you. Because you have momentum. In the marketplace, you have reputation, you have assets that can be leveraged, and then you start to coast. And so now you're doing the opposite of what got you there. And it will get you back to where you were, if you're not careful. And so the ability here to recognise that nothing is in in itself valuable. It's valuable and how it's used. And so if your greatest strength will become your biggest weakness, if you let it however, at the same time, your biggest weakness can come become your greatest strength. And that's really exciting. Let's just not judge things. And I think we'll do better both in ourselves and and other people as well. So I love the customer. I never judged them. I never looked at a customer as lazy. I'm glad you brought that up earlier. And I try to coach and train people to to reconsider that that viewpoint of their marketplace. Because how can you be empathetic? And how can you really love your customers and want to serve them if you look down on them with disdain To me that's incongruent. And so I say, This person is lazy, this person is overwhelmed, because there's too many things coming at them simultaneously. My job isn't to make their life more complex, then my job is to simplify, okay, now I can better serve them. Because if I take the attitude that they're not lazy, they're just over leveraged. How do I remove things from their life before I give them my thing? Now I'm going to be more impactful to them. Yeah. And so everything has a usefulness. And that's why it's good to recognise that is the utility of the thing. In this case, it's useful. In this case, it's a hindrance over here, it's powerful over here it isn't. And so we always try to seek to find empowering states. And we always seek to avoid or minimise limiting states talking emotional states hear that and I think that helps people. Yep, and 39:52 one once you recognise that the question to ask from self is how can I be an easy to work with? How can I A be an epidemic of hope for someone when the person is already overwhelmed. And what you said about every weakness could be a strength for you. It was bang on, it took me several years back in my life. There was a time I used to start up. And I used to cry because people would make fun of me. I would say, mum told me to go there. And I'm doing there. It took me several years, to work on myself with the belief that a day would come when you would appreciate every single word that's going to come out of my mouth. It took me days. It took me weeks. Now, it took me years, decades to work on that. And today, if you ask me, God, what's the gift that you will feel you're blessed when, as I would say, the way I communicate and the way I connect with others? Jason, I have come across situations where people tend to get stuck with their own identities. And they don't have high estimation of themselves, they tend to estimate themselves lower than where they are. What do you think? Why is it so? And what can I do as a co traveller as a colleague, as a friend, as a leader that might assist that person? 41:41 It's a great question. I and I've suffered from this, sometimes I still suffer from this, I don't think it's something that goes away. It's kinda like, You got to shave, and you got to take a bath, every so often, no matter how good you are, mentally, you got to do some cleanup on this. This idea of the the identity is, it's filtered through a perspective. And this is what I really, really helped me when I was going through that toolkit, I told you earlier, I discovered it was all about perspective, if I looked at it from this way gain this insight, if I looked at it from that way, I gained a different insight. And so I wanted to be able to maximise all the perspectives that I could utilise that would help me and empower me and not just be left to the perspectives of live limitation. So most entrepreneurs and most people in general, they measure their progress based on how much more they need to do. So this is looking forward to the future. And then that puts them in a state of deficit. Here's what I still need to do that I haven't done yet. They don't measure it from the past, look at everything I've done to get to this point, it almost never happens that way. It's where you got to put in some work in order to do that, which puts you in an abundance state of being. And so one of the clauses I use with clients is I used to say to them, you know, this is this will empower a lot of people when they hear it is there used to come a time when you couldn't walk, you couldn't talk, you went to the bathroom in your own pants, and somebody else had to feed you look how far you've come. And they're like, oh, wow, you're telling me this task that you're doing right now is harder than that, right? You didn't even know how to speak a language. Nobody even taught you. You learned it yourself. Just through observation. You tell me that that is easier or harder than what this is over there. And they start to say, okay, yeah, I get that right. Now, out of all these perspectives that I've discovered, the most powerful perspective is the identity. I think the identity is more influential on who a person is than anything. And so when I'm listening to somebody and watching them and working with them, I look for clues on what's the identity of this person? Or what do they identify with? How do they label themselves, because then they're only able to work within the confines of that label. This is, again, I don't care how strong that label is, it has limitations. And so I want to see and hear what that label is. And I want to then be able to figure out ways of can we shift some point, some part of that label? Or can we completely change that label? altogether? And what can we do about that label? And so somebody said to me one, this is really interesting. So I was on a call helping a client client hired me to help them sell $100,000 thing. So this is a like a business group that it costs $100,000 to be in, and you have to be qualified and all this stuff. So I said, I'll do I'll take some calls for you, and help you build a model. So you can sell this thing and train your team on it, and so on and so forth. And so I get on one of these calls. And this guy says to me, he says I understand I need to climb ladders, in order to you know, come up in this business, and I'm willing to do that I'm willing to climb the ladders. And so in my mind In the label was ladder climber? Well, what's the presupposition of that that's a lot of work. That's a lot of effort. It involves, you know, going one rung up. And there's a lot of other implications of that it, it focuses on the self and the individual that I have to climb, I have to do this and it's all on me. And I started working with him right on the sales call on on considering a different identity other than ladder climbers, ladder climber, the only way that you have to look at this, if you identify with a ladder climber, then everything you're going to do is going to require a lot of effort. It's going to require a lot of focus, what ladders should you climb? How do you know the ladder is the right ladder to climb? What building is it leaning on, it could be leaning on the wrong building. Instead, we started to build an identity of somebody who is able to be in a network, because we're selling a networking thing, and be able to contribute in a way that whatever was put out was gotten back multiple times. So how can I be the value add or not the ladder climber? How can I be the value added. And we started to shift that identity here. Because then I said, Now, you know, you don't have to climb ladders anymore. Yeah, and he ran, he recognised that, and he resonated with that. And it was extremely valuable to him. And so like, I don't like to be the webinar guy. Because to me, the identity and the label on that you have to kind of concede it to the market from a marketing standpoint, but I've never labelled myself as that. I've always thought of myself as a strategic problem solver, a strategic thinker. I want to utilise the way in this way I always talk about with with clients with webinars, as I said, essentially, like if you're a if you want to make a nice meal, you need the best ingredients, but you also need the best cook. So the best ingredients without a good cook is going to give you a terrible meal simultaneously. Or I should say, conversely, the best chef with terrible ingredients isn't going to cook a world class meal either. So you need both. And I people think though, uh, you know, if I had to pick between the two of those, I would rather be a world class chef with average ingredients, than to be an average chef with world class ingredients, I think I'm going to get a better outcome. So I look at myself kind of as the chef, I look at myself as the person who creates and cooks up these things and puts them out there. I don't look at it as work if I have to go to work, and don't feel too good. But if I can express and I can create, and my keynote is my canvas, it's like me being Picasso, and my art is the presentations that I develop. And those presentations, they come from this, this higher level identity of strategic problem solving this market has this problem. And everybody else is trying to help them solve it this way. And it's inefficient, I have to sell them on a new paradigm. What is that paradigm? Let me figure that out creatively. And then let me strategically positioning, the webinar is just the byproduct of that the webinar is just the outcome you want, you want to sharpen your axe before you chop the tree down. So the swinging of the axe is the webinar, but the sharpening of it is the thinking and the strategic problem solving that goes into it. So I'm careful not to identify myself too much as the webinar. externally. We got to take it right. So yeah, so a question to everybody in the audience to reflect on and think about is, what current identities do you take on? Because you take on different identities in different situations? Which one serves you really well? Which ones? Should you consider updating? And could you try on different identities and see what happens? Because if you can, that can be a game changer instantly for you? 48:49 Yeah, I'm just loving this conversation. One, when you use this metaphor of ladder climbing, and in my mind, I was I was still stuck with the metaphor. Until you decoded that metaphor, I could connect with that. And also, I loved it when you said that internally. I'm not the webinar guy. I'm not the webinar man. I am the strategic problem solver. So what I'm also picking up is, you may have different identities in the different context. For the world, you could be the webinar guy, but internally, I'm being somebody else who is more empowering. And just loving this conversation. Jason begin the last conversation where we had Dave orange, and he spoke about the way you show up in the world comes from the identity that you hold. Before that, you know, Jason Pfeiffer, right? I was having this conversation. I asked Jason, who are you without your titles without your books that you have written and then he's the way he started? He actually took us to the mission statement that he has created for himself. I love this question from audience who are you without your titles? Who are you without your identity and the way you said it? I think that has decoded it really well, that we can have different identities in different contexts and different situations. Take a pause, ask this question from yourself, which identity is serving you? Which identity is not sort of a you just might understand. You create your identity based on the experiences you have gone through in your life. I personally believe it's not that easy to break one identity and step into another identity, would it be possible for you to share a couple of ways that could help an individual to tap into and show up in a different identity? Because what people don't understand when you ask this person, hey, what's your identity? Who are you being in this moment? People might not understand that. It's, it's too esoteric? How do you deal with that situation. 50:58 So the number one way I deal with it is I collapse their model of reality. So everybody has this model of reality of how they how they see themselves. And you can either try to change that model of reality, which is extremely hard to do, and doesn't usually work that well. Or you can have it fall upon itself. You could just have it. You could lean into it, and it will break apart, or just in and of itself. I'll give you an example of this. So I learned most of this from Milton Erickson, who was the father of modern conversational hypnosis, and a client comes to him, and she wants to lose weight. And she's had this problem where she's lost weight, and every time she has, she's gained weight. And so she's identified that losing weight is extremely painful in gaining weight is really easy. And she's just been in this pattern, she'll lose weight, and then she'll gain it, she'll lose it, and then she'll gain it. And so Erickson forces her to commit to this plan without any deviation. And he makes her agree that no matter what she'll listen to exactly what he says, And he makes her gain weight first, he makes her gain more weight than she's ever gained in her life. And now she's begging him to lose weight. And he's like, you're not ready, you're not going to lose weight, I'm not going to let you lose weight yet. And so the pain of gaining weight now is greater than losing it. So losing, it becomes easier than gaining it. So this time, when she gets up to the weight, she then loses all of her weight, she gets to her ideal body weight, and she keeps it off, because the pain of gaining it is greater now than the pain of losing it. That's an example of collapsing of reality, you lean into it, instead of fighting, you blow it up to the point where they are, it's inconsistent for them to continue to hold that belief, that identity. You know, another way that I've done it with a different client is a compulsive nail biter. So somebody that bites their nails. And I asked him a question, how do you know which nail to bite first? So this is eliciting a model of reality? How do you know which nail to bite first and nobody's ever asked him this question before. So this goes back to if you say the same thing everybody else says. Good luck, right? And now I've gained instant report. Now I've taken the position of of interest. I want to know more about the process. But here's what happens when you do this you bring consciousness into an unconscious and an unconscious situation. Now all sudden, you elicit some control for the client over the problem. Now the presupposition is you are you have a process you are choosing it. Not that you are a victim of it, right. So in and of itself, that's powerful. Then he starts to say, Okay, well, I know how to choose this nail first. And I say, Well, why this nail instead of that nail, and then he comes up with an elaborate thing, and the longer he starts to explain the elaborateness of what's going on here. The Sylar sillier he begins to feel. Like this is ridiculous now that I finally said it out loud now that I put a voice to it, it collapses on itself. You don't even have to tell them, he just immediately concludes, there's probably better ways to get relief than this way. There's probably healthier ways more holistic ways to get relief than this way. So So that's on a micro level. So on the map, my the macro level, we tried to take the identity and we try to magnify it to the point where it blows up. So if you continue to behave in this way for the next 25 years, where would it lead you? So this is a shift of time. And that's really powerful at changing somebody's identity almost instantaneously. I 25 years from now, if you continue this behaviour and you continue to do this, where would it lead you? And they're like, Okay, I've not run that pattern yet. And now you can you can help them understand that this identity probably isn't going to get them where they want to go. Now what's really important in a situation like this, you got to you got to be very delicate about this stuff because we're this is surgery for the soul, right, we're going into some very sensitive parts, you have to honour whatever it was that got them to this point, because it's served them. If for no other reasons, it's served them to get to the point where they can change. So you can't look at whatever their identity is, with disdain. With judgement, you have to acknowledge the value of it, the beautiful thing about that identity is it's led them to the point where they're now capable of change. And there's value in that we should absolutely be appreciative of that. And so I always help clients with that as much as possible to not look negatively on the identity they currently have not be judgmental towards it, because then it still won't feel good if they change the identity, and it can creep back in. So instead, we want to honour that identity, here's another good way to have a funeral for it, a metaphorical funeral, if you will, where we can grieve it properly, so we can bury it, and we can go through the grieving process of it. And then we can put it behind us. And so we look at, well, if we were to have a funeral for this, and honour it for what it was and how it has served you and how it's protected you and how it's brought you to this point, what kind of funeral would we have for it. And now because there's a void there, they have to fill that void with something and generally human beings, when you when you remove a block, they find something that is healthier, something that is more valuable, they're naturally going to then operate in a better way, it's kind of like a computer bug, that computer bug will continue to run into pattern and you won't be able to fix it. But you go and you change a little bit of code, and then it runs just smoothly. Most human beings, they're pretty good overall, they just got a couple of bugs in the code. And if we fix a couple of bugs in the code, then they'll naturally run pretty well as a result of that. And so that's what we're trying to do. And so these are some of the ways in which we can shift identity, one of the I'll give you one more, because a lot of people they identify, they have this limitation of fear, we all do. Fear is the greatest limiter of all. So what we do is we personify it. And I say to a client, I said, we're not going to get rid of fear. But we don't have to allow fear to drive the car anymore, we can put it in the passenger seat. Now whether or not you want to put a seatbelt on it is up to you. So fear is going to be along for the ride. It's just not going to be driving anymore. And so we shift the identity there of of a victim, I'm victimised by my fears, and I have no power over them. To yeah, there's fear in my life, because it's, it's unrealistic. It's, it's what's the word I'm looking for here. It's delusional. And a normal, healthy human being to believe that somehow you can get rid of the fear. You can't. If you try to, and you somehow do, I'm worried about you. Because that's like, now you're sounding very psychopathic. decided the goal isn't to get rid of the fear, the goal is to allow the fear to help you in certain situations, but not at the expense of living your life. And so if we can shift the identity to fear as somebody who accompanies me, when I go and do the things that I do, then that's going to be very effective from either trying to be absolutely delusional and pretend it's not there when it is there, or to be victimised by it and not be able to do anything other than what your fear allows you to do. So shifting that identity ever so subtly, it's amazing, you put a crack in a foundation in the right spot, it will crumble the whole foundation. So when I'm looking at identity shifting, I'm trying to think what's the weakest point of this identity and with one small tap, how can I shatter that identity, so that way, it no longer continues to constrain this person in the way that it always has. And we do, what we do is kind of easy, honestly, like, I'm not doing therapy, I'm not taking somebody through a childhood trauma experience that has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, right? We are applying this in a business setting. So so it's it's a lot easier a day. And it doesn't solve everybody's problems either. Because there's certain things they have to go through in order to do these things. But in a business capacity in a business relationship, visa vie the product or service that you offer, or what you're helping somebody on, it's 10%, the thing they buy in is 90% what they think about and how they feel about it. And so what we're doing is not relying only on the 10% of what they buy, like everybody else does. We are trying as best as possible before, during and after the purchase to get that 90% in there as well to help empower them to think and feel differently about it. So when they use it, they get a better result. 59:47 Yeah, just some Thank you. I think the few thoughts which are coming to me right now. I'm just going to share those quotes with you. As Carl Jung said unless you bring unconscious to your conscious it's going to it's continued to go into do it continuously going to drive your life and you would call it fate. That's one. Another thing that I heard you saying is, you have to kill a part of your own self to give birth to a new self connecting it back to the identity, revisit your identity, which is not serving you identify the point. And if you can bring a crack that is going to DC medipharm I use this word it's going to DC meant the complete identity. But before that, take a pause and check. How has this identity served you using the timeshift? Passport forward 20 years, if you continue to operate from this space? What kind of future are you going to create and generate for yourself when the pain is more them, what was the payoff is, of course, you'll start to think about the shifts that you need to bring in. And then instead, what could be an identity that you can step into, that can create a future that you want to create in your life. Jason, I think this was pure gold. For all the coaches and the way you created a distinction between that we are in business. And when we are business, we are not here to do any kind of therapy, just by holding the coaching position. And the laws and the principles of persuasion. The principle that you have learned from selling through webinars, I think the same principles can be applied in life as well. Just last question, Jason, with all this insights and experiences that you've had for yourself, what's the one thing that you know for sure, with 100%? certainty? 1:01:51 One thing I know for sure, with 100% certainty is that it's uncertain. The only certainty in this world the material world is uncertainty. And you got to be okay with knowing ultimately, there are certain things that are in your control. This is the hardest lesson I had to learn. Well, I don't know if it's the hardest is one of the hardest, is there are certain things that are out of your control. There's nothing you can do, no matter how good of a person you are. Or no matter how hard you try. There's certain things that are just out of your control. This world if it's fair, and it's just I can't see it. Good things will happen to bad people and bad things will happen to good people. You know, tragedy will occur, and we will lose souls beautiful young souls and we can't explain it, we don't understand why. And that's, that's hard. And this righteousness in which I used to this violent righteousness in which I used to approach the world and try to fix these things only lead to despair every single time of fighting the reality that's in front of me. And so I've learned over the years, I have to be okay, with not knowing what will happen, no matter how much I prepare, and no matter how much I try. And if I tried too much, I'm trying to be God, right. Like my ego then says I am the controller right. And no wonder that it's such a distressful position to be in because that's God's position, that's not my position, or it's not your position. And so I have to be simultaneously learning how to behave in a way where I work towards my goals, as if there's an absolute certainty that I will reach them. So pardon me, this is the greatest magic trick of all, if you can pull it off of being able to operate with certainty, as you have conflicting thoughts inside of yourself, and be okay with the conflict and the ability to not have resolution over them. So I have to operate in such a way where I go through it as if it's a certainty that I can achieve it. Because that'll allow me the confidence to act boldly and work through all the challenges, but I also simultaneously have to be okay. With something happen, that prevents me from achieving that. Because this life, my friend, it is so brittle. It is so fickle. It can happen, in instance, where something can just go wrong, and you're done. And maybe not even dead, right? Like my father had a stroke a couple of years ago. And right before he had the stroke, he was working every day of his life. Even in retirement the guy that's all he did was work. And then in one fateful evening, he went from working hard to not even be able to walk again, not even be able to talk parts of his brain are destroyed. He's not the same person he was. And it's sad. But it's like that is the world we live in. Things like that can happen so quickly. So we simultaneously can't get attached to the outcomes as we work towards those outcomes. And that's the hardest thing of all that I've learned to do in this business is to be okay with realising that I'm going to give it the best I can. But the results are ultimately out of my hands. So, so if I meet with something that is unexpected, that's just that's Krishnas design, that's something I have to accept and my willingness to fight that is my willingness not to be in sync with the Creator, this world that I live in. And that's tough. And that's hard. And so yeah, you know, you got to be certain about the uncertainty, you got to be okay with the fact that you could do everything right. And it's still not end up the way that you want it to be. But you still have to act as if it can be. That's the last night 1:05:43 que Jason, thank you so much. And when you started this, when I asked you this question, what are you? What are you 100%? sure about you said, in the materialistic world. And what you spoke about are the same laws that we apply in the four dimensional world where we talk about impermanence, when we talk about not taking anything personally, I think thank you so much, Jason, it was such a beautiful conversation thoroughly enjoyed. This was pure gold. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being here and listening to this conversation. I'm sure you had amazing insights and reflections from this conversation and all the insights that Jason shared with us. We'd love to hear from you. What are your key insights to share that with us at golf inspires@gmail.com At the same time, after a long time, I've come across a situation where somebody has been able to bring the materialistic world, somebody has been able to bring the laws and the principles of selling on webinars, and the law of impermanence and the law of uncertainty and the law of spirituality and the laws of curiosity on the table. And every time I'm bringing curiosity on table, you are letting go of identity, you are letting go off that street to control things you are letting go off that need to possess things that might lead to self victimisation. So remember that and I look forward to hear from you. What are your key takeaways from this amazing conversation with Jason, the webinar man? Oops, sorry, the strategic problem solver. Thank you. Stay blessed. Stay tuned. Thank you. 1:07:31 Now you're most welcome. Thank you so much.

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