Dilip Saraf

The Layoff Paradox: Who Wins and Who Loses?

The Layoff Paradox: Who Wins and Who Loses?

Dilip Saraf

Career and Life Coach at Career Transitions Unlimited
Chief Mentor at Mentor’s Cloud

Dilip Saraf

Dilip Saraf is an executive, career, and life coach at Career Transitions Unlimited, and is labeled LinkedIn’s #1 coach. As the Chief Mentor at Mentor Cloud, he provides online mentorship to organized communities. Dilip served as the head of engineering and program management at a Fortune-500. He has authored 5 books on career transition, career management, and succeeding in the corporate world.

Saraf’s work as a career coach has spanned over two decades, during which he has helped numerous individuals in their career transitions and job searches. He is the author of several books, including “The 7 Keys to a Dream Job,” “Winning the War for Talent,” and “Maximize Your Retirement Income.” Saraf’s books are widely regarded as practical and insightful guides that provide actionable strategies for career and personal growth.

Apart from his coaching and writing, Saraf is also a frequent speaker at conferences and events, where he shares his insights on topics such as leadership, career development, and entrepreneurship.
Dilip practices in Silicon Valley and works with clients globally.

Take home these learnings:

1. Why people limit themselves to their past experiences?
2. The importance of being useful rather than just being smart in the corporate world.
3. How having an indispensable entity in an organization is toxic behaviour?
4. What happens, and who really wins and loses in the process of layoff?

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Episode Transcript:

00:03 Thank you so much, Mr. Searle for accepting our invitation and to be here and the podcast, such a pleasure having you 00:09 here. Thank you. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. 00:15 What should I call you? How should I address you? It's a delay 00:20 the discovery. 00:22 Thank you. Thank you, Dilip. I've been following your work, I've been following up the kind of good work, the kind of coaching that you're doing, what you write on LinkedIn, I've heard a lot about you the kinds of work that you're involved in. At least I don't know of anyone in the coaching sphere, who is handling the number of clients that you are handling. I don't know of anyone who's handling people from different geographies as you are handling. So there's lots that I would like to ask from you. But and before we get into that space, would love to hear from you. You got into coaching way back in the year 2001. To the man that the industry was at a very nascent stage at that point in time, how did you end up in coaching? And why did you decide to stay in that space? For so long? 01:19 Okay, I think those are very good questions. So let me go back to how it all got started. My first inflection point in my career, was when I was 50 years old, just about 50. And I was head of engineering of a major division of $2 billion company. And suddenly, they decided to shut down the division. And I had a team of about 100 Plus engineers and other staff. And all of a sudden, we're out of work. And at that point, I said to myself, look, here, I'm 50 years old, I'm out of work, I could probably get another job as VP of engineering. But what happens if I get laid off at 60 or 70 years of age? And I said to myself, there is nobody who's gonna give me a job at 60 7080 I'm at right now. And so I said, No, I need to change my crack and gotten to a new direction. So I moved from high tech, which is where I was out of engineering, into biotech, because biotech was very hot at the time, AIDS was coming up, and nobody had an instrument to detect aids progression and so forth. This is 1989. And I don't even know if you know, the, the history of AIDS, the disease that was defined in a detection and treatment and so forth. So one of the biotech firms president was giving a talk about developing an instrument to detect aids, and I happen to be sitting there in front of him in a major audience, and he said, Oh, within six years, we're going to have this instrument. And I caught him after the meeting. He said, Why does it take six years to do something like this? And he said, Well, you know, you have to develop research, clinical trials, FDA approval, all those things take even longer than six years. I said, What if I showed you how to do it in three years? And he said, How can you do that? I said, hire me, and I'll tell you. So I made a switch as a consultant in biotech, and I knew nothing about biotech at the time. And we got that out in three years. And that instrument is still in the market for desktop instrument. decks, early signs of aids disease. So that was my first foray into doing something No. Then I changed. I did that for about six years, then I changed career again. And that brought me to 2001. When I had just suffered another layer, I was laid off again because of downturn. And I said to myself, this is going to be a repeat pattern for anybody in technology, field, biotech, high tech. So I said, Why don't I become a career coach? Because by then I had reinvented myself four times in my career. Actual reinvention, not just another job. But another career. I've done that four times. I said, Why don't I show people how to do that. And everybody was laying off in 2001, major layoffs, Hewlett Packard, Cisco, Amazon, Google, you name it, and every building, I mean, literally, and you probably know that it was everybody was imploring. So I called a company that does work with people who are laid off and call the head of that company and said, whom do you have that understands engineering? That has been an engineer all their life, and has reinvented himself four times before? I can show people how to do that. And they didn't even ask me Did you have a coaching certificate because they didn't have any? Have you coached before and I hadn't? And she said, can you come and show us how to do it, and they engage me, I was there for four years, I wrote four books out of that experience, and worked with literally 1000s of clients. So that's the history of how I got into coaching. 05:21 You're talking about reinventing, and transitioning from engineering mindset to a coaching mindset, I personally believe, requires some kind of efforts. I'm an engineer, by the way, I did my engineering and computer science and got into that space. And somehow I could not find my module in that space and thus lifted, got into other stuff and slowly and steadily. I think coaching found me just curious, Dilip, what shifts did you need to go through to make that transition happen for yourself? That was a little difficult. And I'm sure you would have enjoyed that as well. 06:02 Right? I think I mean, that's a good question. But the thing is, a lot of the people begin to think about doing something in a new direction. Starting with what they don't know, right? They say I will, I don't know how coaching works. I don't know how people respond to coaching. I don't know how effective coaching would be what if I fail, that's the mindset, most people start, I start with the opposite mindset. And I say, Okay, I became a career coach 2001. And I was probably the coach who gave the most innovation in that company. And these four books I came out of that experience, reflect some other innovation in how to how to develop your message, how to brand yourself, how to develop your unique value proposition. I came up with that, because the old paradigm simply didn't work. And especially in the time period, we were in, where everybody was laying off, you had to figure out ways to innovate, to find jobs, because everybody was lying. So So one of the ways in fact, that letter is in my first book that I wrote, we wrote a letter to Steve Jobs, one of the clients had an idea about some computer that Apple had that had some maintenance issues, and he came to me and he said, if they do it differently, this will be so much easier to service and maintain and so forth, and increase the life of the computer. So I said, Why don't you write to Steve Jobs. So we wrote to Steve Jobs sent that letter FedEx. And within a day, his secretary called and said, Mr. Jarvis has read the letter, and he wants to meet with you, when Apple himself themselves were laying off at the time. And that letter is in my, in my book, so So the point I want to make is, regardless of how the macro situation is, always pockets of opportunities that people fail to see. And part of what I was able to do in my coaching practice, is identify those and figure out a way to tap into those. And then you don't have to be a great coach, you don't have to have a certification. And all the stuff that people say I don't have, right, it's the only thing, because the function of a coach is to find opportunities for people to tap into whether they themselves think they couldn't do it without somebody telling them they could do it. And if you need people to accept that paradigm, then you are an effective coach. Right? That's my difference. So over the years, I've worked with like 7000 clients now. And age groups from 14 with 14 years is the youngest I have, the oldest client I have is 76. Now and everything in between in all walks of life, you know, from movie stars, to music directors in Hollywood, to scientists to you know, neurosurgeons to you name it. I have clients in all these areas. 09:14 I'm not surprised. I was just listening to one of your interviews where you mentioned that people limit themselves with what they have done. Right. And in fact, I was thinking, one of the older paradigms that I used to believe in is that you can predict somebody's future looking at once patterns and once history. Right. And what you mentioned, is very different from what I have believed in, right, that people limit themselves with what they have done. Right? What's your take on that? 09:48 I think it's a very simple one, right? Like, when somebody comes to me and said, I want to go in a new direction. And how can I do that? And And I asked him a simple question. I said, Can you fly an airplane? And the immediate answer is no, I can't. But he fired asked him, Have you flown a plane? And if they say, No, that's a very different answer. Because when I say, Can you fly a plane? The answer should be, of course, teach me how to fly now fly it. To see how people limit themselves by how they perceive what's being asked of them. Without thinking, what is the correct response? And in the Saudis planning the defeat themselves? You understand what I'm saying? 10:42 What a beautiful analogy, what I'm, the distinction that I'm creating right now is, have you flown an aeroplane is very different from Can you do that? Because can is a question of capability. Have you flown is a question of what you have done or not done in the past. 11:00 But the immediate answer is, can you fly a plane? So of course not. Now? Yeah, yeah. And that's the mindset most people bring into, before coming into this coaching practice that I have. And we've done some amazing work. I mean, I can give you one example, just as a sample point, this client came to me about 10 years ago, first level managers very frustrated, he said, I don't see any hope for getting me, you know, up in my career, and getting some leadership roles and so forth. And we've been working with her now for the last 10 years. And last year, exactly a year ago, now, November of last year, she is now the president of a $3 billion organization. That Oh, yeah. And she married his, like 4000 engineers. And we went through step by step into her career. And so just to do an example, I'm not bragging about it, I'm just saying, and she's doing a great job. I mean, she just can't contain herself, in how she's able to do things that her predecessor had completely failed to do was highly experienced a lot of, you know, brand around him and so forth. And yet, she's totally able to redefine her role as the president of this $3 billion organization. And so this is an example of how people limit themselves by the look at looking back the rearview mirror and say, well, we didn't manage or maybe I should be a director and maybe retire as a VP, right? I mean, if that, and she's only 40 years old. Right? As an as in Wow, wow. So I mean, I can't take credit for it, the only credit I can take is guiding her in a way that she saw a possibility. And she said, I can do that. And she did it. And then she did some more, and so forth. And this is just one example. I'm not saying every client is that successful. But these are the ways people find a new way to apply themselves. This surprises them and puts them in a very different realm. 13:20 Dilip let's shift the gears, I would love to understand your clients, I would love to understand the people who are able to make it to the senior leadership team from the lens of an organization. You know, you call yourself a career coach. And as you're mentioning that you have worked with you have coached over 7000 people in the last few decades. What do you think, is the most important trait an organization looks for? Before they hire an individual at the leadership level? Okay, so 14:00 the question is, there are different levels of leadership responsibilities, right? I mean, depending on where one looks to put a leader into the organization, and also depends on what cycle the business is in, and the cycle business cycles needs, in terms of leadership, drivers for that organization, to grow, to scale to turn around whatever it is, because it's a constant, you know, challenge for business in different stages of its evolution. And so, I would say that, for an organization to find a good leader, they need to define what the needs are in terms of what drives to their next level of scale. And how does that attribute or characteristics to leader rings is going to help them and then define that And then find the leader through a series of screenings and calibrations and interviews and all the stuff the process people do. And so I think it depends on situational needs of an organization. And I don't think there is there is a better answer. But so there's no such thing. My side is getting the clients ready to take on that leadership role. Because most people feel like, you know, they're not ready, they feel like, you know, they lack something, or they're carry the imposter syndrome. I don't know if you know what that is. Yeah. So Right. So part of my duty I call it is to dispel all of that and say the job, here is how I see you doing what you do. Because I see that within you to be able to do it 16:01 and prove me wrong. Like this client told me about who is now the president of it. 16:10 Another case is when a person was in consulting background, and he said, Dilip, I'm tired of consulting, I want to go into the corporate world. And this is, again, a 10 year old client. I've been working with him for 10 years. And he really did well in his career evolution, where went from VP to Senior VP to President of the largest trivial to $20 billion organization. And is it now I don't think I don't see any room here for me to grow. I cannot be a CEO here. How can we get myself into a CEO role? So we worked on that for two years, we positioned him correctly, we started marketing him. And just about three, four, maybe four months ago, he landed as a CEO of a major biotech company in San Diego. Right. So, so a lot of it depends on how much they are willing to believe in themselves, and how much they're willing to work with things that they think are out of reach. Right. And I always tell them, your reach should be greater than your grasp. And wow, yeah, read should be greater than your grass. Yeah, yeah, 17:30 since you're talking about your read should be greater than your grass. And we are talking about the transition transition from one role to another transition from one company to another transition from one country to another transition from as you're talking about, the Vice President to the president, transition of any kind is very painful, it's very painful requires a lot of shift. At the mindset level, to set level skill set level, you need to learn new tricks of the game, you need to learn new tricks of the game, you need to get out of your comfort zone and explored unchartered territory. So what according to you come in the way when one is one is exploring new possibilities for self and made that necessary transition, be it a transition a new job, as I mentioned, a new role career something in the personal life? Actually, 18:22 you know, I mean, I beg to differ with you. Transitions are not transitions are not painful as you predicated here. Transitions are exciting. If you're going in the right direction for yourself, even though the next step is an unknown to you. If that's something that you cherish, and say that I want to really explore how I can benefit or how I can contribute in that role. Next role, whatever that is. So my view is, if you're on the right path, that transition, rather than being painful, is exciting. And it's that excitement that allows you to sail to apply energy in a way to make that successful. Because, you know, everybody claims they know all this stuff. Nobody knows as much as you think they know. And the question is, how much are you willing to not let your limiting beliefs break, put a break on you or create headwinds for you? And just that confident like when I was coach, you know, 21 years ago, I didn't know anything about coaching. But I never let that stop me. I said, What do you want to do? And they said, Well, I want to do this. I want to go in a direction. Because everybody was laying off from technology. Everybody wants to reinvent. And I said, I've done that four times. Let me show you how to do that. And not every reinvention was successful. But a lot of where a lot of people a lot of people landed in completely different roles that they never thought they would be able to write. Because not that because of me, but because they kind of opened themselves up to new possibilities, and not let anything stop them. So what was stopping them was their limiting beliefs. Right? And so, 20:21 a lot, a lot is to be done by the mindset one is operating from. Yeah, 20:27 I keep saying, you live in your mind not in your house. Right? You live in your mind. 20:35 And your one liners are world class. I still remember another conversation where you mentioned being useful and being smarter to different requirements in the corporate world. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. For me, it was like a wow, I never thought like that in the past. 20:53 Yeah, that's really true. I mean, I've seen a lot of very smart people who are not terribly useful. In fact, they get in the way of teams, because they assume themselves to be so smart, that nobody can work with them. And in fact, in my own organization, I had a person like that. And one of the first things I did bid to him was after telling him, this is not working. Get rid of him. Everybody was shocked. He was the smartest guy in the team. But nobody could work with them. This happens a lot, 21:28 because so yeah, how did you bite? How did you bite that bullet? 21:32 No, I just said this is as a VP of engineering, that's my decision. But collectively as a team, we are stronger than he is or ever will be. And, and it worked. It happened, the guy left. Everybody said we can do without and we didn't realize that. Right. And so nobody is indispensable in an organization. Because if you create such indispensable entities in an organization, you are a poor leader. Organization, any organization effective organization should be completely immune to any indispensable entities. Yeah, yeah. 22:17 And I think that gives birth to toxic behavior in our organization. 22:21 It doesn't promote, it promotes it. And also, the other side is, it also promotes mediocrity, right? Yeah, then mediocre people say, Well, I can get away with it. I mean, if you can get away with it, I can get away with by cruising, you know, just going along with everybody and doing the minimal amount of work. And that happens a lot. That happens a lot. In fact, I don't know if you read this, Gallup surveys and so forth. 80% of the people employed across the world, this is a sample of 60 to 70,000 people across different organization levels, different verticals, different countries, Allah, about 80% of the people are not engaged in what they do. Only 20%. Will the wait, I don't know if you've seen that just just Google Gallup service. 23:11 I'm not at all surprised. I'm not at all surprised. There was a survey, there was another survey that I was reading some time back when he talks about the employer employee engagement scores, and what percentage of the people they're actually contributing to the overall top as well as the bottom line, that organization that you have done a lot of work with different organizations from different countries? And if my memory supports me, you have done work from 20 different nationalities? Right? Probably more Yeah. What have you noticed are the differences and the similarities and leaders from different geographies be it India or China, on one hand, beat us on the other hand beat European countries and other hand? 24:00 I wouldn't say that I wouldn't categorize them by their cultural, geographical background. They're all smart. I mean, look at you know, how many Indian CEOs are here like Google and Microsoft, and Michael, MasterCard, and now Starbucks, you know, and so, you know, certainly the leadership traits are independent of where they come from, right. Indians happen to be bringing certain values in how they manage people manage their organization, and their commitment to work which kind of elevates them above everybody else because of the because of their values they bring. But I would say that I don't think any particular nationality or culture brings any particular trait that is useful to leadership. But, but the flip side of that is what I found to be and this is a studied topic, I mean, you can look it up is called power distance PDF power distance index. And what that is, is the perceived difference people have between their level and the next level of leadership called PDF, power distance index. And people in open cultures like the United States, and I think Australia is another country, and maybe there are some other countries, Canada is one of them. The PDI is quite small, it's like one or two or whatever it is. But in other cultures like China and India, and the more traditional, you know, cultures that come in that PDI is quite hard. Right? You always call your boss sir. And you never argue with your boss always obey what they do. And even our parents told us Don't disobey your boss, right? I don't know if you? 26:10 Yeah. And I think I think that's their relationship with power. That's their relationship with authority. 26:18 Right, but I think that drives their thinking, right, I mean, so, if the PDI is small, then they are able to influence even upper echelons because they are not afraid to voice their views. What if PDI gets in the way and a boss has a certain point of view? 26:40 A lot? A lot even open my mouth? Absolutely. Because 26:45 you will, because I have worked in India in that culture. I work at In fact, I was in Delhi. Right? What for three years at a very major corporation. And, you know, just not to name anybody but lava gees word was the final word. Yeah. What the general manager said and regardless of whatever anybody said, regardless, he was right around the time the lava J opened his mouth, everybody said, Yes, sir. We'll do that for you. And that's the PDI problem, right power distance index problem. Until, until your question, it's not so much which country brings the best leader. It's which countries cultural baggage that they bring, creates a leadership drag because of that. So would 27:31 it be a fair assumption to make that countries like us countries like Australia and Canada that you're talking about, bring in a different set of cultural baggage is as countries like India, China, Indonesia, to some extent they bring it right. And they that definitely has an impact on the way one shows up as a leader, and also the way one treats their leader? 27:58 Correct? Right, both up and down. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have many clients who come to me with their boss or their boss, skip boss, being either Indian or Chinese or one of those high PDI cultures. And many of those relationship problems stem from that mindset. It's very difficult to give them countermeasures or remedies that they can adapt to have that relationship work for them 28:31 in order. Oh, absolutely. Because, you know, when you work with any organization, seven out of 10, companies will tell you that we have the most technically savvy people working with us, they are exceptional, when it comes to the functional expertise, they are really great when it comes to technical acumen that they bring in. But when it comes to dealing with people, that's where the challenge is. And as I'm listening to you, the power distance index is one of those seven reasons why people will get into that challenge when they're dealing with their appeals when they're dealing with their seniors when they're dealing with their team members. What do you think, could be the possible other reasons that might come in the way? The other 29:14 reason? Yeah, the other reason is a lot of the times and I've seen this firsthand a lot of the times almost often I would say people will come from technology engineering science kind of background, you know, where cause and effect is the cardinal principle, right? Everything, every cause has an effect and vice versa and so forth. So, and systems are linear. In fact, it can predict the linear system, how it behaves, that kind of stuff. And with that mindset, they expect the human beings that they deal with behave in a similar linear fashion and they don't 29:54 work like that. 29:56 Doesn't work like that. But as a society it's it's In fact, simpler than, in my view, simpler than working with complex linear systems. Because if you take the mindset that I can get somebody to accept my argument, by advancing a logic that is based on what the person's preferences are, versus my preferences are, then that argument becomes far more sellable, right? I'll give an example. Makes it easier. People just assume that because somebody is doing well, in, let's say, his or her role in an organization, that I should give her more money in the next review cycle, right? That's my assumption, because money is important to me as a manager, right? But that person says, I make enough money, I don't need any more money. Instead, give me some time off, and give me some time for me to explore new areas of work. And that would be compensation for me rather than giving me more money. But until you ask that question, you never know that. And a classic example of this an actual story, one very senior guy was up for a raise. And his boss said, Listen, you don't have a terrific job, we got 10 patents this year, and this and that, we're gonna give you a 20% Raise. And he said, I don't need that raise, I make enough money. But if he can give me the painting, or an etching from this artist, that I can hang in my wall, that are more than make up for what I don't have. Right. But if he didn't ask him that he would have never known that. And when he would have given him he would have been even more unhappy, because he didn't get that etching that he wanted in his office. Right, is what I'm saying. So So I think human beings are far more predictable than most people give credit for. And the problem that we run into, is we assume that the other side shares the same values that we do. Yeah, yeah. And if we don't explore that, you will always end up with that being a puzzle to you. And then we start judging the other person. Right, right. Yeah. How can you not make money, you know? So that's, that's the other side of sort of the other side is VDI is one, but the other side is understanding how to see what is important to the other person, and how to package it so that they see what they want, and get excited about it. 32:43 Yeah, yeah. You know, I hear you when you are saying that it's really important for a leader to reach out to his team members to reach out to her team members to understand what do you care for. Now, interestingly, in the world, where we are living in right now, where people find it still difficult to move out of work from home mindset, and we get back to the corporate. So that means corporates are opting for hybrid model. What kind of challenges do you foresee because of this hybrid culture? And what is the possible way out? And how can we deal with that? 33:24 I think that's a very good question. Because it's a major psychological adjustment in our social contract, if you want to call it that, because we like to work on in your cubicle, take a walk, gossip, go talk to somebody, share an idea, go to their board and chalk something up and those kinds of things. That's the typical working environment. And all of that is somewhat now foreign to us. Because in our work from home situation, those resources are no longer available. And consequently, we need to adjust that in the way we look at how to keep our mental health, and how to keep that social connection. And how to stay productive requires a shift, right. And that's not an easy shift for a lot of people, because they feel isolated. So there are several antidotes to that several countermeasures to that, which is instead of getting on a zoom, call somebody one on one and say that look, I just want to check with you, Jim, how you doing? I know that you lost your uncle two years ago to COVID. Are you still affected by that? You know, it's somewhat of a personal connection with that, or say I just thought of something that you had told me in one of our meetings one time ago, that your son had ADHD, and I just came across a resource that tells me that there are ways for young kids to overcome a PhD or at least to mitigate it, and I just sent you that link, see if that's useful to you. In other words, we need to find ways to keep that human connection. So that we don't feel alienated. And I there is a TED talk actually, I'm trying to remember the title of it is that the human connection is actually a resource that allows us to heal a lot better than any medicine that'll allow us to do it. So we need to kind of maintain that humanity around us and try to keep that connection, even though we are remote. And it's possible to do that, for example, how many people call their boss and tell them that Boss, look, you've done a great job throughout this COVID thing. I didn't miss anything that I needed, because the way you conducted yourself. I want to make sure that you are okay. Right, tell me what I can do. Yeah. Appreciate what you've done. How many people will do that? I don't think so. But even imagine the power of that. Imagine the power of that. Calling your boss or sending him a note sending her a note and say that look, Sally, you know, your support has been invaluable. And I wish more bosses were like you. Just imagine the power of those two sentences? 36:40 Yeah. 36:42 I was really surprised when it comes to you as a total surprise. 36:45 Yeah. This is really interesting, because some time back, I wrote a comment, I wrote a post on the LinkedIn where I mentioned that we talked about that so and so organization has laid off so many employees, right? Why don't we talk about that this employee left this organization because of another 5%? Hike? Why don't we talk about that this person? When he applied when she applied for a job? He already have four offer letters in her hand? Why don't we talk about that, we always talk about what a leader did to the team member, we don't talk about what our team member has done to the leader. And I think that's where I think at times, we get biased, we get biased. And that's where it's extremely important. As you are mentioning, can I write a message to my boss and saying, boss, you know what, for the last two years, you've been really kind you supported us the way you did? And just just curious to know, how have you been holding on to this? How is your life going on? How are you? With whom are you sharing your challenges. 37:57 And you can do that all the way up to CEO because I mean, I'll give you a simple example, how trenchant it is how point entities when Steve Job really broke through, came back to Apple the second time, broke through and launch these, you know, IMAX and all these computers and Apple was profitable again. And you remember, this is circa 19, mid 90s, right. And the board of directors was so impressed with him, that they gave him g4 Gulfstream four aircraft as a gift, right? Which is worth $100 million or more. Right. And one thing Steve said as a result of that, which is interesting. He said that they gave me this 100 million dollar aircraft, but not single board member told me that I was doing a good job. 38:50 Think about that. Just verbally just tell you that's all they had to say they didn't seem to spend 100 million dollars on it. So even for people at that level. This is important to them. 39:09 Oh, it is of course and always remain I guess. 39:13 Right. But we think we need that from above which is not true. 39:22 Yeah, anyway, so. So yeah, it does Delete. Thank you. Thank you so much Dilip as I've been, as we have been talking about, and I mentioned that you have been coaching so many people in different parts of the world in different industries. It's very important for a coach to enter the conversation. From a space of nothingness being totally empty. vessel by nothingness, 39:50 nothingness. 39:50 Yeah, okay. Yeah. So how do you ensure that you keep yourself empty in every conversation that you have with your co cheese 40:00 by empty, you mean open? Is that what you mean? 40:03 Open and neutral? Not carrying your own baggage from the last fight? 40:10 So I guess I don't fully understand the question, but here is what has worked for me that I can tell you. Number one, try to understand the problem, the client is articulating, and try to codify that with something that is known to you. In other words, there are only so many problems, right? I mean, I can tell you all the coaching, I've done with some 1000s of people, false probably into four categories. One is relationship, right, which is about 80% of my practice. One is mismatch between what they want to do versus what they're really doing, which is a competency issue is about 5%. Number three is higher ups not appreciating the value they bring, and rewarding them accordingly. And number four, is not sharing a career growth path for them. That actually works for them. I'm not saying there's only four categories. But I would say that if you take these four categories, that's 95% of my practice. Right? So the point I want to make is that what once you understand and codify these kind of needs people have around their development, right? keeping an open mind and listening to them and saying, Okay, it looks like you have a relationship problem with your boss, because I think you're not communicating at the same level. And maybe you should try this. And maybe you should try that. And once again, I don't tell them what to do. I suggest them what might work for them. And there is a difference. It's more of a Socratic method of identifying. If that's the problem, will this work. And maybe that's the apotheosis, you should test by saying this to the boss and see how she reacts to it. And then take the next step, right, most people just assume that it's a hopeless relationship that they cannot recover. Nothing is ever hopeless, at least I haven't found it to be, there's always some way to find a way to penetrate that. Yeah, but people don't have the resources internally. Wired requires a lot of emotional stamina, rather, self confidence, a lot of good ability to articulate your true logic in a way that is not offensive. And that's not easy. 42:59 When I get into coaching conversations with people at times, I tend to get that energy in my own life. That impacts me. What are those practices that you follow that allows you to stay grounded, not carry those baggage does not carry that energy into your life? And not lose your sanity? 43:27 Right, right? No, I keep, for lack of a better phrase, a proper clinical distance between my practice and my life, I guess the best way I can phrase it, because if you don't, then it will consume you. Right. I mean, I'm just recently I have a case where Mike clients son is accused of molesting and even going beyond that, a friend of theirs that they known for many, many years. And as a result, both of those families have just become adversaries and, and are talking to each other and so forth. And the way it was presented to me was in great detail how this all happened. And yet, I looked at it clinically in the in the sense that what are the issues that are causing now causing these two families to behave the way they do? And what are some of the ways that we can make them come together without losing sight of what has happened? And that's what we are working on currently. This is a current issue right now. So so the point is, if I let that bother me, I mean, I would be wasted. I would not be useful coach. Yeah. Right. So you have to maintain that clinical distance. And you have to yet be effective in how Are you delivering? So 45:01 what are those practices that you follow on day to day basis? That might be of some? 45:06 I don't think there's any practices such I mean, I listen, I try to guide them, I see how they respond to it. I look at I ask them to try it, they come back and say, well, that worked. But that didn't work. So let's tweak it. And so I do this interactively. And as somebody do this without attaching myself, that's not that doesn't mean that I'm not engaged with the coaching. Connection. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't bring it home with me. But I'm thinking about how what would be the best approach? I do that in the shower? I do that by shaving? I do that is your design. But that doesn't, your way doesn't need that. Yes, yeah. That needs addressing. 45:59 So then, if you were to give a piece of advice to your own self, to your younger self, when you would have started your coaching journey? Yeah. What would you offer? 46:15 I would say to myself, my younger self, 46:18 that 46:21 the problems of humanity are universal. And you just need to find a way to codify the problem that you're facing, and find a solution, that they can make it work for themselves, not for me, but for themselves. And it took me a long time to figure out how to get there. And I'm still struggling with it. I mean, I don't have solution to all the problems. And, and yet, I feel like I've done the best I can listen to what they are struggling with, and how they could overcome it. And what will work and what may not work to an ongoing dialogue. And it's not, you know, binary, it's not cause and effect and it's not this or that. It's how can we interactively make this thing work productively and entrusted? That's what I would say to my younger self. 47:30 Yeah. Thank you so much. They were a pleasure listening to you extracting wisdom from your experience, I think. 47:39 Very good. Thank you. I enjoyed the talk. And hopefully we can stay in touch. 47:44 Looking. Thank you so much. Bye now.

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