Intro:// How do you know if someone has suicidal tendencies? How do they show up? What kind of language do you find them speaking? How do you tackle with those life situations when you feel crushed and life seems difficult beyond a measure? There are two ways to deal with a tragedy in your life. One is to do simply nothing about that and the second one is to make your misery your mission. Welcome ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the podcast The xMonks drive. I am your host Gaurav Arora and our today’s guest is Dennis Gillan. Dennis is the founder of “Half A Sorrow Foundation”, an expert on Mental Health and Suicide prevention, and definitely a joy to be around. Let’s hear from Dennis on how did he get into this space and why did he choose to get into the field of suicide prevention and mental health. You die by suicide…you don’t commit suicide…it’s not a crime… not felony… . Outro:// My key take aways from this episode are: The way you show up for others make a huge difference “Be in the Ministry of presence and just show up”. What’s your key take away. Please do share that with us. Also, please leave a review and a rating for the podcast and I look forward to meeting you next week with yet another interesting conversation. Till them stay tuned and take care. 00:02 Dennis, thank you so much for accepting our invitation. Such a pleasure having you here. 00:08 Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for taking on this tough subject. 00:13 Thank you, Dennis. It is indeed a tough subject that we are going to explore. And that's the reason we thought that we should have a master who can actually do justice to this subject. Before we even talk about that subject, let's take a dive. I would love to know Dennis, a little better. You know, Dennis, you are one of the five siblings. Please share an experience from your childhood that brings a smile on your face today as well. Yeah, this smile I'm talking about. 00:44 Exactly! When you said childhood, I had a good childhood. So it did bring a smile. The minute you mentioned childhood, like yeah, we're gonna go there. Because I have wonderful childhood memories. It was a very nice upbringing. There were five kids and one of the memories that cracks me up was of me and my older brother Mark. We had a room downstairs, and Matthew was little. He was upstairs. So Sheila, Mark, me(Dennis), Janice and Matthew. And Matthew would always come downstairs. You can hear him coming down the stairs, they were wood stairs. And he wanted to play but we could hear him coming. And we'd say pretend you're asleep. And we pretend to sleep. And Matthew would come over, he would literally like you know, we laying in bed, he would pull our eyes open, like, come on. He would say come on, let's go play. Because he was younger. He was seven years younger. And he wanted he wanted us up. And we were like teenagers. So he's like, seven, I'm 14. He's like, Come on, get up. So that's one of my funniest memories trying to sit there and not laugh. While your little brother is pulling your eyelids up, trying to get you to wake up. G-Because he wants to play with you. He was wide awake, and we're still like teenagers laying in bed. And he's like, let's go. The sun is up. Let's play. 02:02 As I'm listening to you. It brings me to my childhood. So thank you for bringing that and I love the way you describe that. He would try to open your eyelids. Hey get up, bother get up. Let's go out and play Dennis, During our last conversation, you, you you mentioned something and that stayed with me. Not only the words that you shared. But I think the tonality, the emotions. The drag that you had in your voice, when you said that my misery has become my mission. And I knew it. There's something which is very, very deep there. And if I look at your life, you are into mental health and suicide prevention. What were those moments in your life when you decided to dedicate your life to mental health and suicide prevention? 03:07 Like everything else, it was a slow process for me. I often tell people, I'm a reluctant warrior. But a warrior nonetheless. You know, I didn't, I didn't want to talk about this because it was such a tough subject. And it took me a while and I always marvel at people that have a tragedy and like the next day they're doing something about it. I'm like, Whoa! You know, you know, they're starting a foundation or they're on a crusade and they're petitioning lawmakers. It took me probably 16 years to talk about my brothers. Before even thought that this would be something I did. So for a while there, I answered the phones here in the States for the anonymous Suicide Prevention Lifeline and I could do that myself anonymously. No one knew I was doing that. So that was I felt like I was helping. But eventually, I felt the tug to tell the story. I just felt the tug. And it was like you know what, you got to share this with the hopes that nobody else would ever go through this. You know, you want to prevent future occurrences. So, and that comes for a lot of your listeners too, is you get to this point of redemptive healing. Redemptive healing is you know, I've been through some stuff. I don't want anyone else to go through it. How do I stop? So that's why it was weird. My misery did become my mission. It was something I never wanted to talk about. Now I talk about it 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It's… it's what I do. And it just funny how that worked. It took forever. 04:43 So the brother that you were talking about another brother that you were with downstairs. And one day you realize that first one brother and then the other brother committed suicide. 04:56 It was Mark. Yeah, two different brothers. And of the of the five kids we lost to suicide. It's interesting we say the word here in the States, we said die by suicide. We try not to say the word commit, because it denotes like a crime. You committed a felony, you committed a crime. So we say, you know, more Mark died by suicide. I was 20 years old. And Mark was just what 22-23, a couple years older than me. He had struggled a little bit with depression. I say a little bit, probably struggled a lot more than I know. And he thought it out, he really planned it. He..umm..his intention was to die by suicide. You know, I don't think Matthew’s was. Matthew was 11 years later, I think in a drunken stupor, we'll get to that one. He was drinking and he had a firearm. But Mark was very intentional about what he did. And that that hurt, then, you know, that hurt really bad that he thought it out, how to process, wrote a note all that stuff. And it just shows him how much pain he was in, that he could do all that and still proceed, a lot of us would start that process. I know some folks who written the note and started crying during the note thinking about how good their life is, and from all the note up and throw it away. But he wrote it out and set up a rigged up a system where he can, he can leave us and it was very methodical. 06:28 And that's why you say that, how you converted your misery into your mission [Exactly] and you started. 06:40 After the losses I suffered, I had to do something. 06:46 And you started this organization called Half A Sorrow. And you also mentioned during the last conversation, then is that you sell hope. What's the story behind Half A Sorrow? The story behind 07:02 Half A Sorrow, I wanted to create a foundation, where a lot of my friends and family wanted to help me with this mission. And the way they would help. Often that asked, “Hey, can I give you money.” And in the States, we would have to have some kind of, you know, foundation or tax purposes. So you can give it to me, but I'm not set up for that. So eventually, I said, you know enough people asked, “I need to set up a foundation.” And I set up the foundation. And some people were really kind to me, they said, Dennis, don't name. I asked for a name. I guess you crowdsource it, I put it out on on the internet. I said Facebook. I said, “I'm going to start this foundation, what would you call it?” Because I was not very good at marketing. And a lot of people got back with great responses. They took my two brothers names, and they kind of merged them. And I said Mark Matt foundation or Matt Mark foundation or something like that double M. And then one guy said, Dennis, don't name the brother, don't name your foundation at your brother's name. It's something that means something to you. And I guess that's like a best practice of sorts, because my brother's name eventually will wear out. But if I pick something that would exist forever. So I was sitting there going, what am I going to call it and then one day, I heard that an old proverb that said, “A shared joy is a double joy. A shared sorrow is half a sorrow.” And I started incorporating that into my presentation. And that resonated with people. You know, when we share our sorrows, we cut it in half, you'll never get rid of your sorrow, because your half of a half of a half, you'll always have some remainder. And that's okay, because that means my brothers were significant to me. But that name for some reason, I said, thinking about it, like Half A Sorrow Foundation. And the reason I think it's really cool, because we want to cut our sorrows in half. But I also want people to like you to ask me, where'd you get the name? I think it did tell them. A shared joy is a double joy. A shared sorrow is half of sorrow. And we all need to get better at sharing our sorrows. 09:16 And of course, sharing our happiness and sharing our hopes because that's going to get doubled. And since then, you started sending hope. 09:28 Hope is a great product to sell, but the hope is that tomorrow will get better. When I speak to vulnerable or desperate people, I just want to let them know that better days are coming. It will happen. Just stay with us. I'm not trying to tell people in my talk how to live, but I am going to try to tell them to live. How you live is up to you. I could barely do me. If you do you, I'll do me how about that? But I do want you to live I keep use this metaphor, I want you above the ground. I want you. Yeah, I want you here. Stay. Stay afloat how you live after that. I don't care. I really don't care. Yeah. I just want to do, I'll hug you. 10:16 Thank you, Dennis. Dennis, you've gone through so much in your life. And I would talk about that the journey that you have traveled and traversed with them. And above all, you have assisted so many people to live to live, as you mentioned, as you've just seen, your brother's giving up a hope? What do you think why do people get stuck in their stories that lead them that push them to suicidal tendencies? What could be a primary reason for that? 10:55 Well, I guess suicide is a very complex problem, and it requires complex solutions. There's a lot going on, at least. People get stuck. And our brains, unfortunately, aren't, are not good cheerleaders for us. They tell us, you know, in our heads, we tell us some really bad things. We just do. You and I make a mistake. We are our own toughest critics. Nobody can come down harder on Dennis than Dennis comes down on himself. Nobody, you know, trust me like. We are..we're very harsh to ourselves. I know what you are saying. Yeah, in your personal professional, you do something wrong, and you lose a client or something you don't crush. 11:38 And we beat ourselves. 11:41 Insistently, and that's what we got to break that cycle. That's rumination into staying there. But a lot of people get stuck in that. And that's, it's almost like a default mechanism. And there is a chemical imbalance that comes with our biology, you know. So people have a genetic predisposition to, or biological disposition to depression, you know, just maybe the brain chemicals are off. But I've found in my travels, a lot of the depression and negative thinking comes from trauma that they've faced. So in multiple traumas, where, and sometimes they'll tell you what happened, and you can't see how they're still here. And you're like, Holy Mackerel! how did you survive all that? I'm proud of you. You're very resilient. But you can see a person like that when they couldn't see hope, because everything happened bad to him, they're just expecting the next bad thing to happen to him. And we really have to instill in those folks, you get it. First of all, you get it and you know, you don't try to diminish or minimize it. If someone is bringing something up to you, you just you acknowledge it. And you listen, what we have been, what we often do is we go into fix it mode. Somebody will tell you something wrong. And you go, “Oh, here's what you should do.” And like, hold on here. I didn't ask. I just wanted to be a sounding board. I just needed to get this off my chest. Yeah, so I feel really bad for folks who are, there's chronic depression is chronic suicidality, they're always thinking about it. And my heart goes out to them, but they put in a lot of protective measures. It's like me working around my ADHD, which I do have. I have Attention Deficit Disorder really bad. So I have to work around it. Like if my wife asked me to bring home something from my printer behind me. She'd go, “Dennis, can you print this and bring this home?” A simple request, right? I can't tell you how many times I forgot it. So now, I immediately right away, print it, and put it by my door or put my keys on top of it. So when I leave, I have to grab my keys on my phone and go, Oh! my wife wants this. So a lot of people who struggle with depression and even bipolar, they put in measures in place, like safety plans to pull them out of it. They acknowledged it exists. And for me to survive, I've got to do XYZ. All of us do. 14:10 Yeah, so it could be chronic, it could be depression, it could be the highest form of anxiety one is going through. It could be the stuck record that I'm I continue to think and rethink and rethink and continue to beat and crush myself as as you said. So Dennis what are the symptoms that we need to be mindful of with people who are going through some difficult times, be it chronic depression, be it anxiety, be it self beating, be it, crushing self, and may have suicidal tendencies? 14:43 For someone with suicidal tendencies, it's often found out after the fact that they left some clues. They literally.. literally dropped some warning signs. And over the years, people way smarter than me have done this thing called psychological autospies is where they're trying to gather what we call warning signs, 15:04 Psychological Autopsy. 15:06 Psychological autopsy, like just like do a physical autopsy, they'll go back and try to recreate what was going on inside this person's head, visit the apartment, look at their, you know, their, their web searches just try to figure out where they were in their mind at that time.So in a psychological autopsy really smart people have come up with some warning signs, and they put them in three buckets. The first bucket is TALK. People may talk about it in a weird way, just like I wouldn’t have to worry about that. You know, that bill next month, that won't bother me, like. What do you mean by that? That's like a little hint like, What do you mean that bill next month will bother you because he won't be here. So this talk, they'll say stuff like I'm a burden, you all would be better off without me, which is so not true. So and they'll even clarify this, but I mean talk, they'll write it, or text it, verbalize it somehow, some way it comes out. And take all those seriously. So that's one bucket. The other bucket is BEHAVIOUR. They start acting irrationally, they start withdrawing. That's a big one. Think about you and I when we're not feeling well mentally. And after my younger brother, Matthew died from suicide, I withdrew from society. I isolated, and I was hurting. And I didn't want to be around people. And now it's up to the people to come get that person. So you'll start, you'll notice, like if we have meetings, think, say this was a, an annual or a weekly meeting you and I had, and we had four or five guys, and notice that one person stopped showing up. It's up to us to go check on that person. So that's what I tell people, they withdraw they isolate, they'll start giving away items. You know, hey, I don't I don't play the guitar anymore. You could have it. Why? Why is that you used to love it. So explore those and the last ones moods to talk behavior. And then the third one is MOOD. And that's one need to start. You just see some behaviors. Maybe they're acting reckless. They're, they're suddenly happier or calmer. And that's one of them. Like they have a plan in place, a manic yesterday and today, everything's fine. What's up, you know, outbursts, unwanted stuff. And then there's other signs like, you know, gosh, what did I do after my older brother died? Excessive use of alcohol, drugs. I would, I was drinking a lot after Mark died, trying to mask the pain. If someone's in pain, and they're not dealing with it in what you consider a positive way, they'll deal with it in a negative way. For many drugs and alcohol fit that bill. Self-harm. There's a lot of stuff out there. But those three buckets, yeah, help. 17:59 So what I'm listening is it is visible, provided we are willing to listen. It's available in their language, it's available in their emotions and the mood that you spoke about. It's available in the way they are showing up, their behavior. It could be a withdrawal symptoms. It could be keeping them self isolated, locking themselves in the room, or aggressive behavior, as you mentioned, indulging into substance or indulging into drinking. You know, today also, and I'm not surprised because when people keep themselves isolated, or they will want to withdraw and not associate with anyone, because mental health or suicide are considered as a taboo in our society. So how do you break the ice with people when people might not be comfortable talking about what they are going through? So how do you handle that challenge? 18:53 Well, one of the positive aspects of me finally coming out and talking about my brothers, which took me forever to talk about, by the way, has been people have recognized me as a go-to-person when they're hurting. And I'm fully upfront with them. Listen, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a psychiatrist. I was a business major at university. But they just feel comfortable. And I, I take that as an absolute privilege that they've opened up to me. And so the nature of my work now has allowed people to come in. And then what I get to do is I get to coach people into through some of the trainings I do. I get to coach them what to look for. And every now and then one of those people come up and say,”Oh, you are not gonna believe what happened. You know, my nephew was acting really weird. And everybody said, Oh, he's just a teenager, but it was deeper than that. You know, I've had stories like that. So that's kind of cool. I get to hear stories and then make other people I guess, warriors in this battle with me. And It's kind of cool to see a branch out. And people come back home, I listened to your talk, I did this and this person is still alive. I'm like, yay. 20:10 At least one person could connect with you. One person could hear you, could feel you, could see you and could see hope in your conversations. So, Dennis, in your experience having spoken to so many people who would have experienced mental challenges or suicidal tendencies, when one is going through that difficulty when one is going to that phase, what's the least expectation they would have from others? 20:46 Can you rephrase that? Again? What was the least what was the least 20:50 expectation they would have? from others people around them? 20:57 The least expectation? Yeah. Well, I guess I can tell you one of the things. If you're hurting, and you want to help somebody's hurting, this is even better. Go to that side is a good friend of mine who modeled the behavior. After Matthew died, I was not going out of my house for a while I was just hurting. And a friend of mine showed up. One day, it's called The Ministry Of Presence, you just show up and said, “Hey, buddy, we're gonna go see a movie, get in the car.” And I had to leave my house, which I hadn't done in a while. And go to a movie with public. Watch it. And then we came back, and we sat on his front porch. And we just hit a porch swing. It was a swing. And I've just sat there and I just swinging. And then when I felt that as appropriate, I looked at him, I said, “I, I want to go.” He goes, “Allright! take care.” Now, he didn't say anything magical to me that night. He didn't have these wonderful words of comfort. He just showed up. He didn't have to say anything. He just dragged my butt out of the house. I didn't want to go. I sat on his porch. We didn't say much. And then I left. And I'll never forget that. 22:15 And you said to just show up. 22:19 They'll show up because when there's a mental health issue, or even say there was a suicide attempt, and the person left, which is great for all of us, right? People tend and say, Oh we shouldn't go over there and talk. Yeah, go over and talk to him. What would you do when a person broke their leg, you'd go over there and talk to go over and talk to him saying, man, you're still here. That was close. I love you. And if you ever need anything, I'm here. I don't know what else to say. But I'll hold your hand through the whole thing. How about that? 22:56 So on one hand, when we're talking about just show up. However, if I look at life, from your perspective, through the lens that you wear, how easy or difficult is it for you Dennis to assist people who are going to this journey, because I'm sure any such conversation could possibly pull you to an experience of losing your own brother. That must be tragic. That could be a hot button for you. 23:29 You bring up a great point, I have to be very mindful of where I am. There's an old expression that you can't pour from an empty cup. So if there is a time, or a place where I don't feel like I can help someone, I have to be very upfront with them and say, “Listen, I'm not doing so well myself. Are you going to see a therapist or something?” But most times I've been given the strength because of what I've been through, most times I could power through it. And it reminds of my brothers, it's a weird way of I'm trying to… I'm trying to get back to the universe. I lost two brothers. If I could save two people, I'm all even if I could save more, I'm in the plus column. So I view it as an absolute privilege to be with these folks. And it's my calling to do it. I didn't want to do it. But here I am. And I'm gonna stop resisting. I am a man of faith. Gosh.. I've blown off God forever. Dennis, I want you to do that. I didn't do it. And then finally I'm in and I'm equipped for it. And I'm also well smart enough to know when I'm not equipped for it. So yeah, I can't help you. 24:48 Yeah, a few words which are resonating with me as I'm listening to you, Dennis, the reluctant warrior who help people feel normal again. Dennis, you've seen life from such close quarters. If somebody asks you, how do you define life? What would be your response? 25:15 Well, that's interesting. Back to the spiritual part of my life. My time on Earth is a dress rehearsal for greater things. That's how I have to be a really been. And I have to be a good citizen. And this wasn't always the view. This took time. For a lot of my life, my entire life was about me, Dennis, especially when I was younger, everything was about Dennis. And the minute I cut off, Dennis and said, “Dennis, your life is not about you. It's truly about others.” Everything seems to fall into place. So that's how I view life as a dress rehearsal for greater things. But I have a weird vision. I would say weird, spiritual vision that I'm going to be judged on how I treat other people. So I better start treating them really nice because I'm not getting any younger. And as I like to tell some of the kids I'm I'm cramming for the final. You know, I'm getting ready for the the big test because I'm really. I have to make up for all those years where Dennis was the center of the universe. And that is so not true. And it's amazing for you and your listeners, because you're a coach. You know that the minute you start trying to help other people get what they want. You get what you want. And I just wish someone told me that when I was 12 years old. 26:42 You should just help other people do what they want, you will get what you want. Now just shifting the gears Dennis here. When I ask people to write down their nightmares, they talk about the death of their family member, they talk about the loss of job, loss of an identity. And here you are, you have lost jobs. You have dealt with divorce. You have dealt with death of two brothers, mother and sister dealing with cancer. What keeps you going? What pushes you to jump out of your bed and do what you do with so much of rigour, energy, positivity and spreading hope all around? 27:42 It's funny you say that because there's some days, I don't feel like doing it. Because it's just the burden. But for those days, and I'm going to reach over here for those days, I grab what I call my purple file. And I have a purple file or a blue looks like on the cap(points at cap) purple. And in that file are notes from people, thank you cards. Anytime I've done something or a talk something. Here's a brochure from a talk, you know, Dennis Gillen is going to be speaking at premises, I'm pulling up this various pieces of paper that are in this file that are positive reinforcement of what I'm doing. So when there are days that I feel like quitting, I reach for the purple file. I open it up. And I say, “No, I cannot quit.” There are people depending on what message I'm giving. 28:37 That purple file that tells you the impact that you're creating, the difference you are making. Those thank you cards, those brochures, those collaterals. That's an evidence. That's validation, that you are spreading hope in the world, you are helping people to lead a normal life. And this is a beautiful moment. Let's ask a question from our audience. What is your purple file? How do you deal with those moments when you feel crushed by life and when you feel beaten up, when you feel that the work that I'm doing, it's not worthy because the moment you visit social media, you will realize that the only person who is a failure in this world is you. Because everyone is talking about how good they are, the money that they are making, the impact that they are creating. So it's a good moment Dennis to ask where is my purple file? And even when you go to your purple file, I'm sure dealing with those emotions is not that easy task. People find it extremely difficult to manage their emotions. So how do you juggle with those emotions on one hand, there is a sense of gratitude. And on the other hand, sure you will have those moments which are pulling you down. 30:11 Well, I am extremely blessed to have a good support system, family and friends, and seriously good friends that I can tell them when I'm down. And they know, it's part of this, what we call safety planning. They know they're on my safety plan. If I'm really going south, they're getting a call. And it's got to be proactive. I've done some things when you mentioned, the litany of stuff that I went through. Every one of your listeners has a list of stuff that negatively, has impacted them. I'm not any unique in any way, shape, or form. And I also have a list of really cool things that happened in my life like your listeners have as well. When I went through that divorce, I changed my people, place and things. I moved from where I was living to another town. Now I had just moved to China, because I didn't know anybody in that town. So I just got up and left. And I joined a hiking club. And I like to tell the story because it was out of my comfort level. I had to go online and sign up for these hikes with people I did not know. I had to show up to a designated meeting area, and then get in someone else's car. And we drove to where we're going to hike. And I didn't want to do what I blew it off for a while I did, I pushed it off. But then when I did it, I was so glad I did it. Because I get to meet wonderful people. And I got to go in the woods, and commune with nature. And then the ultimate goal of anything I do is, I got out of my head. I got out of my head that day. On those Saturdays, when I went hiking, I got out of my head. I came home, I ate and I was tired on the bed. Because it was a good hike. So for you and your listeners anytime you can do something to get out of your head, because remember, we talked about earlier sometimes our heads. 32:05 We get stuck with oue energies. 32:08 We gotta just got to get out of here for a while and then you get so tired. You can't even complain about stuff, you just get so exhausted. My other drug of choice these days is I play tennis. And tennis is a simple game. I'm not that good at it. But it's pretty simple. That guy will hit the ball over it's my job to hit it back. Right? So when I'm doing that, that little task, hit the ball back. Forget about everything else. Because you can't think about other stuff. If you're on the tennis court, you can't. You're distracted just like in business or on the you kind of think about that thing you're doing. And tennis is great for that. Here comes the ball hit it back. 32:43 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Dennis, Dennis. In all our conversations, you have spoken about the importance of kindness and compassion and forgiveness. In fact, in all our conversations, I've experienced a lot of kindness and compassion in the way you speak the way you can make the choice of your words. How can we bring in more kindness and compassion and forgiveness in this world? What are your thoughts on this? 33:20 Well, it's interesting. We need to be kinder, and anyone who's ever been kind to you, you'll never forget it. So why don't we do that to other people, you know. We all can remember that kind teacher, that kind you know, Headmaster, whatever that kind of boss we had. Never forget those people. And I know on this planet, if I can reach behind me here[points at a photo]. There's there is a gentleman on this planet right now, who was alive, who's my co-author of a children's book called Nice Shoes because somebody was kind to him. He was having a bad day in school, and on the way out of school, and I tell the story he told me he was thinking about dying by suicide. And one person in the school on the way out, looked and he had new shoes on and he said, “Steven nice shoes.” And that is my co author Steven Peel. He told the story right there Stephen Peel. And he said Steven nice shoes. And Steven walked out of the building that day. With that kind word, one kind word over all the other crap had gone on that day, all the bad stuff. One kind word saved that dude's life. He told that story, when I was at a university here in the States. I brought three students up on stage with me while I was speaking and Stephen was one of them. He told that story and I couldn't get out of my head. So we created a children's book out of it. Nice Shoes. Kindness. So that's where I get my conviction from because I know for a fact that a personal friend of mine now is on this planet, because somebody was kind to him one time. 35:06 Thank you. Thank you so much, Dennis. Because I always tell people that kindness and compassion will never go out of fashion. Different fashions will come and they will go, they would fade away. Kindness was. Compassionate was. Kindness is. Compassion is. Kindness will be and compassion will be. Thank you so much, Dennis, for your time. For sharing different episodes of your life. I know it's not an easy subject to talk about. But I think the way you shared give us a lot of clarity what is required when one is going through what are those symptoms that we need to be mindful of and what what's the least that we can do to tell them that-"Hey! you're wearing a nice pair of shoes.” Thank you. 35:55 Thank you very much for taking this on. I appreciate 35:57 You. My key takeaways from this episode are the way you show for others make us a huge difference. And being the Ministry Of Presence and just show up. By the way what are your key takeaways, please do share that with us. Also please leave a review and a rating for the podcast. I look forward to meeting you at the next week with yet another interesting conversation. Till then stay tuned and take care.